WolfX700 Measurement of SMSL M300 MkII Edition

[SMSL-Mandy]

https://hifi-express.com/products/smsl-m300-mkii-audio-ak4497-balanced-dac-witn-bluetooth
The link of M300 MkII

 

[JohnYang1997]

Just my own opinions:


$250 for a SE DAC is not cheap.
9038q2m's spec is 120db thd+n/129db SNR (each channel, so dual chip should give you 131db SNR).
But d50 has -110db thd+n/117db SNR, and you call them good engineering.
To me delivering >10db worse performance than chip specs means they don't get the basics right.

Look, the huge gap between you and me is, to me, DAC or HP amps are solved problems. There's zero technical difficulty for any good EE college students to design a reasonably clean circuit to power the chip and op amps. Having 10db worse performance means either 1) incompetence. or 2) they don't want to do it well intentionally so in addition to the stuff you buy, you have to buy as well their next generation products, which solves parts of the problem, but creates new problems.


IMHO HoloAudio May is an effort to show good craftsmanship, not good engineering. R2R ladder is outdated architecture and won't move the technology forward. I do, however, appreciate what they did as a piece of art.



They are creating high-end products catering to $2000-$3000 markets and did successfully produce beautiful products.
The implementation did show off a lot of expertise, such as the relay based volume control, Linux-based audio system running on ARM SoC.
The HP amps falls short (like Topping, they don't know how to design a HP amp). but overall I'm impressed. To me they are the very few companies in China move the technology in this category further.
On the other hand, they faced great difficulties when bringing the best to the customers. Their mobile app was much delayed, and has some bugs. Albeit the high price tag, their in-house software does not have any DSP* features (such as room correction etc). This shows R&D is truly hard, and the reason most Chi-Fi suppliers try to avoid them.

* you may say people can install DSP software on computers, that's true. But Matrix produces streamers, not merely DACs. Streaming audio from mobile phones becomes more popular nowadays. Other sources (such as PlayStation) also do not have DSP capabilities. It would be nice if they could have DSP features in their MAPlayer software, so all sources would have consistent support.

Oh? Why don't you go ahead and design a 9038q2m based dac that performs as good as d50s without imd hump and corresponding interface and let dealers to sell it at a cheaper price.

 

[PPP]

Oh? Why don't you go ahead and design a 9038q2m based dac that performs as good as d50s without imd hump and corresponding interface and let dealers to sell it at a cheaper price.

Flagged as troll. Goodbye.

 

[Kane1972]

Flagged as troll. Goodbye.

I think he had a good point, there is clearly a market (the ASR crowd plus millions of Chinese etc) who would gladly buy a DAC from you that out performs all the ones that they currently own or covert. We are assuming you are an EE who could accomplish this from your posts, so you may be able to make a preset penny? I know I would if I had those skills.

 

[JohnYang1997]

I think he had a good point, there is clearly a market (the ASR crowd plus millions of Chinese etc) who would gladly buy a DAC from you that out performs all the ones that they currently own or covert. We are assuming you are an EE who could accomplish this from your posts, so you may be able to make a preset penny? I know I would if I had those skills.

I don't think he does. In contrast I'm the one who have actually designed high performance audio circuits. I know how much it takes to get certain performance. I'll give him one year to accomplish d50s. Well, some people have published some details. But still I'll give him one year to design tha chassis the interface, get the driver, get dealer to sell the product.

 

[PPP]

I think he had a good point, there is clearly a market (the ASR crowd plus millions of Chinese etc) who would gladly buy a DAC from you that out performs all the ones that they currently own or covert. We are assuming you are an EE who could accomplish this from your posts, so you may be able to make a preset penny? I know I would if I had those skills.

Soncoz did exactly that, cheaper, and took far less than a year --- this includes building a new startup, staffing, design and manufacture two products, distribution, etc. He left Khadas and started the startup because he found it's so easy to achieve good performance. He actually uses one 9038q2m chip to crush all the dacs that uses 9038pro chips at the time. He is not a senior aged engineer, by the way --- He's only in his early 30s. All he utilized is fundamental knowledge.

again, there's nothing worth bragging about concerning D50s, period. You feel fooled if a computer manufacturer sell you a computer that uses Intel Core i7, but only running at Pentium speed. Topping did exactly that thing here, but people seems very thankful.

Particularly:

> there is clearly a market (the ASR crowd plus millions of Chinese etc)

If hifi market is that big, talented engineers would already flow in! The reason why it's poorly developed industry (all problems are solved, but no good product) is just because everyone went to do something more lucrative --- mobile phones, smart home devices, etc.

Even in audio industry, Hifi is not considered as something big. RME sells perhaps hundreds of thousands of babyface pro, to the online streaming creators only. The sale of ADI-2 DAC is probably a very tiny fraction of their revenue.

 

[Veri]

You feel fooled if a computer manufacturer sell you a computer that uses Intel Core i7, but only running at Pentium speed. Topping did exactly that thing here, but people seems very thankful.

That's a really poor metaphore though. There's nothing inherently wrong with D50s. The only real remark here being "SONCOZ is better".

 

[PPP]

That's a really poor metaphore though. There's nothing inherently wrong with D50s. The only real remark here being "SONCOZ is better".

You are right. but nothing is inherently wrong with a computer running at Pentium speed, if you use it for online browsing, word processing, etc.

you may say, hey if you use it only for online browsing, word processing, you don't need a Core i7. You are right again. Well, For music listening, you don't need a DAC that good, either.

 

[JohnYang1997]

Soncoz did exactly that, cheaper, and took far less than a year --- this includes building a new startup, staffing, design and manufacture two products, distribution, etc. He left Khadas and started the startup because he found it's so easy to achieve good performance. He actually uses one 9038q2m chip to crush all the dacs that uses 9038pro chips at the time. He is not a senior aged engineer, by the way --- He's only in his early 30s. All he utilized is fundamental knowledge.

again, there's nothing worth bragging about concerning D50s, period. You feel fooled if a computer manufacturer sell you a computer that uses Intel Core i7, but only running at Pentium speed. Topping did exactly that thing here, but people seems very thankful.

Particularly:

> there is clearly a market (the ASR crowd plus millions of Chinese etc)

If hifi market is that big, talented engineers would already flow in! The reason why it's poorly developed industry (all problems are solved, but no good product) is just because everyone went to do something more lucrative --- mobile phones, smart home devices, etc.

Even in audio industry, Hifi is not considered as something big. RME sells perhaps hundreds of thousands of babyface pro, to the online streaming creators only. The sale of ADI-Pro DAC is probably a very tiny fraction of their revenue.

There is nothing to back up your saying that regular college student can design just as good product. All you are doing is talking shit. Also you have zero idea how to make a product. Instead of doing this, learn to appreciate, and in fact, be constructive.

 

[PPP]

All you are doing is talking shit. Also you have zero idea how to make a product. Instead of doing this, learn to appreciate, and in fact, be constructive.

You are talking like a 3 year old toddler.

 

[JohnYang1997]

You are talking like a 3 year old toddler.

Well, let me end this. I have a power amplifier with -130db harmonic when driving 4 ohm load. What do you have? I actually agree with most things you said about how audio is solved problem and everything. I actually said that in a different thread. I had a few designs on my hand when I said that. But it doesn't seem you have the articulate wording and the back up. This conversation won't help anyone, so i won't reply further.

 

[PPP]

Well, let me end this. I have a power amplifier with -130db harmonic when driving 4 ohm load. What do you have? I actually agree with most things you said about how audio is solved problem and everything. I actually said that in a different thread. I had a few designs on my hand when I said that. But it doesn't seem you have the articulate wording and the back up. This conversation won't help anyone, so i won't reply further.

Now that you agreed on most things I have said, let’s end the discussion. I don’t even know why you have to challenge when you agreed on most things discussed... it just feels weird. Probably you just want to show off that you designed some great amplifier. That’s fine...

 

[Dominique-T]

Why is this PPP using such an agressive tone? This is quite unusual on this forum...

 

[amirm]

9038q2m's spec is 120db thd+n/129db SNR (each channel, so dual chip should give you 131db SNR).

Those are marketing specs from ESS. You don't know the true performance of a finished device tested by someone like me.

 

[Kane1972]

Those are marketing specs from ESS. You don't know the true performance of a finished device tested by someone like me.

Exactly, that’s like people expecting to get the full speed that the USB3 (or whatever) specs say is theoretically possible in a USB stick and then saying Sandisk or Corsair don’t know what they are doing when they only get half way to that speed.

 

[PPP]

Those are marketing specs from ESS. You don't know the true performance of a finished device tested by someone like me.

now we have soncoz units from Ben tested by both you and Prof. wolf, we know this is not just marketing.

 

[PPP]

Exactly, that’s like people expecting to get the full speed that the USB3 (or whatever) specs say is theoretically possible in a USB stick and then saying Sandisk or Corsair don’t know what they are doing when they only get half way to that speed.

exactly what? Independent tests from Amir and wolf both proof that the theoretical speed is possible in real released products(Soncoz SDG1). Why can’t people just blame the previous manufacturers that they can’t do the job well?

 

[ceausuc]

exactly what? Independent tests from Amir and wolf both proof that the theoretical speed is possible in real released products(Soncoz SDG1). Why can’t people just blame the previous manufacturers that they can’t do the job well?

Because... nobody is forcing me to buy a Topping product. Maybe that's all they can do. I have no reason to be 'angry' with them.
Anyway, this topic is about SMSL. I just saw the 240$ price of this M300. They will sell a boat of them Does it have a remote also?

 

[Kane1972]

exactly what? Independent tests from Amir and wolf both proof that the theoretical speed is possible in real released products(Soncoz SDG1). Why can’t people just blame the previous manufacturers that they can’t do the job well?

But the M300 and Topping D50s are a lot less expensive than the SDG1 so why should they match it's performance? By this rationale, the SDGI should only cost $250 as well?

 

[igorpadrao]

Not received my M300 that I bought on BlackFriday and there is already a new version. ((´д｀))