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WolfX700 Measurement of SMSL M300 MkII Edition
- Thread starter WolfX-700
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LA-QXD1 is only 200USD and performs better in every way compared to M300.
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This shows exactly how topping is incompetent in audio design. 1. They don’t even know how to design a good headphone amp. It is either broken or poorly performed. 2. Sanskrit with single entry level DAC chip beats the topping’s design with two more expensive chips.
For the reason discussed above (+linearity, jitter, poor quality), I don't believe DX3 should be used as an example to show off good engineering.
rather, in 2020, audio makers should beat the following good products:
LA-QXD1, 200 USD, balanced output
Geshelli Archel2.5, 180 USD, balanced output
schiit magni 3 heresy, 100USD, SE output
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la-qxd1 to me is the winner --- similar 1khz sinad (the number of la-qx1 is around 1.5db off. but that probably is because of the manual soldering).
but if you see the thd+n vs frequency from 20-20khz, it crushed the m300, esp on the low frequencies
m300 has higher ultra sonic noise as you can see in multitone, thd+n vs freqncy, etc.
when jitter is taken into consideration, m300 has spikes > -130 db so not good.
also m300's optical/coax needs extra adaptor.
on the customer point of view the performances are probably similar.
but customer service side --- soncos did very well in recalling all SDG1 machines, while smsl/topping never dared to do (consider the notorious dx3 pro, or smsl su-8 v1).
From eng point of view again la-qxd1 uses 1 es9038q2m (low end, $10 per chip), while M300 uses high end ak4497 chip ($50 per chip). la-qxd1 is more cost effective.
Veri
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Any more info or product detail page of this available anywhere?
There is no product page yet. If you have the time to browse this thread you will find interesting info about it:
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/vendor-s-bazaar/337859-shanti-dual-lps-5v-3a-5v-1-5a-111.html
I used to believe the same about Topping engineers.
But i'm not so sure it has to be true. It seems that Topping has chosen a different production strategy ... instead of releasing a few very good products (and investing time in developing + fine tuning them) they decided to release a dac for every dac chip available as soon as possible. With these time limits and in search of the lowest possible price... that's the result.
Probably is our fault, the customers as we are never happy and we keep looking for the "latest and greatest" (at the lowest price)...
Both Soncoz DACs have volume controls. The cheaper one doesn't have a remote, if that's what you meant.
maxxevv
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It is the nature of their largest and most important market. China.
If they want to capture market share and push volume without too much compromise on pricing, that's exactly what they need to do, else its forever a fight to the bottom when it comes to price as a late entry into the market over there.
The truth is they really don't know how to do a headphone amp. take a look at their latest high-end product such as Topping DX7 Pro. The amp falls short of SNR (compare to products in this price tag), and has large output impedance --- in DX3 Pro v1 they failed completely in creating a 0-output impedance HP amp, so in later products (DX3 v2, DX7 Pro) they refused to do it right, by just walking away from the problem.
Exactly. That’s what I criticized those Chinese manufacturers in the beginning of this thread.
the same thing applies to vg10 knifes manufactured in China, and many other things --- you name it. take the knife industry as an example (see the following youtube video), they import Japanese vg10 steel into the country, because they have no technology to make the raw materials (similar to DAC chips), do some rough and quick work(like what Topping did), and sell the stuff everywhere in all styles with dirt cheap price. They are not as good as Japanese made knifes, but 80% close, at a 20% price tag. They destroyed the entire Japan knife industry, and in the end everyone, including consumers, loses—no one is able to create/appreciate something better.
while German companies such as RME continues to sell their product until the chip manufactures phase out the production of old chips. Their products are well designed, and have tons of features; the software and hardware work together perfectly, to the extent I call ADI-2 Pro a bargain. Chi-Fi manufactures don't even dare to try --- RME must have spent tons of resources on R&D, which those Chifi makers want to avoid in the first place.
If this trend continues, we will live in a world where there's no technology innovation. Great companies who spent tons on R&D lose the market because they cannot compete with companies who create cheap garbages.
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maxxevv
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Topping and RME target very different markets.
One is extremely price sensitive and feature inquisitive, the other almost the direct opposite. Extremely quality sensitive but not so price touchy.
Same as your Japanese knives example.
Within the Japanese markets, the chinese knives would have a hard time garnering fandom, but being 20% of the price , would gobble up the market for such knives in China. And they come close to 80-95% the performance when it comes to Topping and RME.
Horses for courses.
Can't say they are wrong because they have to submit to market forces and demand in their primary and most important market.
One is extremely price sensitive and feature inquisitive, the other almost the direct opposite. Extremely quality sensitive but not so price touchy.
Same as your Japanese knives example.
Within the Japanese markets, the chinese knives would have a hard time garnering fandom, but being 20% of the price , would gobble up the market for such knives in China. And they come close to 80-95% the performance when it comes to Topping and RME.
Horses for courses.
Can't say they are wrong because they have to submit to market forces and demand in their primary and most important market.
Chinese people love cheap products, so are people in the rest of the world. At least in Hifi market, Chinese brands such as Topping & SMSL are known around the world. So are various sub $50 IEMs on Aliexpress. Read for instance, this article on theverge. The cheap Chinese VG10 knifes are sold in every corner of the world via Amazon.
You are absolutely right that the huge market in China is the main cause for this problem --- when a supplier can meet the demand in China well, surely it can export its manufacturing capacity to other parts of the world. I don't blame the ChiFi makers. This is not their fault. But gradually we will be living in a boring world. Maybe the trade war helps a little bit. But no so much.
OP
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Among the audio products made in China, we can see that the equipment is cheap and has certain performance.
You can also see higher priced products with (I think) excellent engineering implementations, such as HoloAudio May.
As far as I know, each price level has its own product line, which is not the only product made in China.
Tks
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@PPP
You seem to be versed in particulars of recent and past events. I'd like to get your thoughts on the company Matrix Audio. Since we're discussing build quality here. Ive yet to see internals as cleanly done as theirs on virtually any DAC and such (from their SABRE-PRO Dac). The exterior ain't nothing to scoff at either when looking at any of their latest designs.
You seem to be versed in particulars of recent and past events. I'd like to get your thoughts on the company Matrix Audio. Since we're discussing build quality here. Ive yet to see internals as cleanly done as theirs on virtually any DAC and such (from their SABRE-PRO Dac). The exterior ain't nothing to scoff at either when looking at any of their latest designs.
Just my own opinions:
9038q2m's spec is 120db thd+n/129db SNR (each channel, so dual chip should give you 131db SNR).
But d50 has -110db thd+n/117db SNR, and you call them good engineering.
To me delivering >10db worse performance than chip specs means they don't get the basics right.
Look, the huge gap between you and me is, to me, DAC or HP amps are solved problems. There's zero technical difficulty for any good EE college students to design a reasonably clean circuit to power the chip and op amps. Having 10db worse performance means either 1) incompetence. or 2) they don't want to do it well intentionally so in addition to the stuff you buy, you have to buy as well their next generation products, which solves parts of the problem, but creates new problems.
The implementation did show off a lot of expertise, such as the relay based volume control, Linux-based audio system running on ARM SoC.
The HP amps falls short (like Topping, they don't know how to design a HP amp). but overall I'm impressed. To me they are the very few companies in China move the technology in this category further.
On the other hand, they faced great difficulties when bringing the best to the customers. Their mobile app was much delayed, and has some bugs. Albeit the high price tag, their in-house software does not have any DSP* features (such as room correction etc). This shows R&D is truly hard, and the reason most Chi-Fi suppliers try to avoid them.
* you may say people can install DSP software on computers, that's true. But Matrix produces streamers, not merely DACs. Streaming audio from mobile phones becomes more popular nowadays. Other sources (such as PlayStation) also do not have DSP capabilities. It would be nice if they could have DSP features in their MAPlayer software, so all sources would have consistent support.
$250 for a SE DAC is not cheap.
9038q2m's spec is 120db thd+n/129db SNR (each channel, so dual chip should give you 131db SNR).
But d50 has -110db thd+n/117db SNR, and you call them good engineering.
To me delivering >10db worse performance than chip specs means they don't get the basics right.
Look, the huge gap between you and me is, to me, DAC or HP amps are solved problems. There's zero technical difficulty for any good EE college students to design a reasonably clean circuit to power the chip and op amps. Having 10db worse performance means either 1) incompetence. or 2) they don't want to do it well intentionally so in addition to the stuff you buy, you have to buy as well their next generation products, which solves parts of the problem, but creates new problems.
IMHO HoloAudio May is an effort to show good craftsmanship, not good engineering. R2R ladder is outdated architecture and won't move the technology forward. I do, however, appreciate what they did as a piece of art.
They are creating high-end products catering to $2000-$3000 markets and did successfully produce beautiful products.
The implementation did show off a lot of expertise, such as the relay based volume control, Linux-based audio system running on ARM SoC.
The HP amps falls short (like Topping, they don't know how to design a HP amp). but overall I'm impressed. To me they are the very few companies in China move the technology in this category further.
On the other hand, they faced great difficulties when bringing the best to the customers. Their mobile app was much delayed, and has some bugs. Albeit the high price tag, their in-house software does not have any DSP* features (such as room correction etc). This shows R&D is truly hard, and the reason most Chi-Fi suppliers try to avoid them.
* you may say people can install DSP software on computers, that's true. But Matrix produces streamers, not merely DACs. Streaming audio from mobile phones becomes more popular nowadays. Other sources (such as PlayStation) also do not have DSP capabilities. It would be nice if they could have DSP features in their MAPlayer software, so all sources would have consistent support.
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The Topping D50s improves on the D50 btw.
Also, some GS members have said they think the DX7 is the best DAC they have ever used and the DX7 Pro has improved on it considerably. Jim Williams liked the DX7 but thought the top end was a bit rolled off and preferred the Pro-Ject one. Don’t think he’s tried the DX7 Pro though.
Also, some GS members have said they think the DX7 is the best DAC they have ever used and the DX7 Pro has improved on it considerably. Jim Williams liked the DX7 but thought the top end was a bit rolled off and preferred the Pro-Ject one. Don’t think he’s tried the DX7 Pro though.