Within a given price range, is an audio-only receiver always preferable to an A/V receiver for music listening?

[Des Esseintes]

Same dilemma as you.... watching thread with interest. I'm leaning more towards an AVR for the reasons stated here. BTW I used to have an AVR but didn't enjoy it fully because my main speakers weren't very good at the time. I now understand that adequate speakers should be 1st priority.

On price comparisons, it may be worth mentioning not all versions of DSP are equal, for instance with Denon/Marantz, the higher (XT32) version of Audyssey is better than the other one. Which in my case, makes the AVR pricier than the stereo amp I was considering ("plain" Yamaha AS-501 or 701 as I already have a streamer).

Streaming adds a whole additional layer of complexity that I initially dismissed because it's hurting my brain just to have to factor that in.

I was leaning towards the "I don't need it so whatever the amp has I won't use it anyway", because it seems like you need to use a dedicated app (or do you? I can't find the answer to that and most explanations I got go way above my head) and I'm happy with the music app I'm using (hundreds of hours of tagging, cataloguing and creating playlists) with my computer connected via a USB/toslink cable connection. Now I'm not sure anymore...

 

[Astoneroad]

Now I'm not sure anymore...

... yeah... that's a recurring symptom that audio has hacked your brain.

 

[Apesbrain]

Also: can a A/V receiver "upgrade" a stereo signal to surround, and if so, is it worth it?

Most AVRs have some way of synthesizing a surround effect from 2-channel; the Denon you've mentioned has several options for this. (See pp. 145-149 of the owner's manual.) I suspect you'd like what it does to some recordings, and not like others. In my experience, traditional "stereo" sources sound fine played back from the FL and FR channels of a quality AVR.

The more interesting option provided by an AVR is that -- with the appropriate source equipment and number of speakers -- you can listen to multi-channel recordings. I've never heard it, but I suspect that DSOTM in Dolby Atmos is an experience! Apple Music offers multi-channel streaming to its Apple TV 4k box connected to the AVR via HDMI.

 

[Des Esseintes]

Most AVRs have some way of synthesizing a surround effect from 2-channel; the Denon you've mentioned has several options for this. (See pp. 145-149 of the owner's manual.) I suspect you'd like what it does to some recordings, and not like others. In my experience, traditional "stereo" sources sound fine played back from the FL and FR channels of a quality AVR.

I see. I was thinking more in terms of BD/UHD discs of movies in mono/stereo. Not sure if it makes sense to send the same audio signal to five speakers, or if the AVR somehow artificially creates something resembling a surround experience.

I'm pretty sure I would never want to do that with music that was intended to be listened to in mono/stereo.

 

[Astoneroad]

I see. I was thinking more in terms of BD/UHD discs of movies in mono/stereo. Not sure if it makes sense to send the same audio signal to five speakers, or if the AVR somehow artificially creates something resembling a surround experience.

I'm pretty sure I would never want to do that with music that was intended to be listened to in mono/stereo.

I've got a 5.1 Yamaha RX-VA4 AVR ($400 new usd or half that used) that I run in bi-amp with 4 speakers for everything, and it sounds great. This isn't the intended usage, since it's not recognizing my "surrounds". After listening to every dsp option and config., this won by a LOT, in my biased listening test... lol. I've tried several good center speakers in 5.1 and the dialog was different for every movie or vid watched and bothersome. After stumbling upon this configuration, stereo is much more immersive, although I'm sure that the purists will offer rebuke... lol. It's got dsp and room correction, the same as the more expensive Yamahas, YPAO. https://manual.yamaha.com/av/18/rxv685/en-US/311793035.html

This may be worth looking into for your usage. There's lots of used units out there.

 

[A Surfer]

...

I'm pretty sure I would never want to do that with music that was intended to be listened to in mono/stereo.

I tend to agree, but I will say that my brother has a modest but good sounding system which does this. I was actually quite surprised that an AVR could actually make a decent go of interpreting a stereo mix into 5.1, but very often it actually sounded really well done.

Now I wasn't listening critically, I tend to not do that anymore. Perhaps someone more set on listening critically wouldn't enjoy the interpretation, but I did.

 

[Astoneroad]

Now I wasn't listening critically, I tend to not do that anymore.

"Hi... my name is A Surfer... I'm an audioholic and it's been x years since I've listened critically. (ASR response "Hello Surfer"

I feel exactly the same way... lol.

 

[popej]

Supposing my priority is music listening in stereo, is it a given that an audio-only receiver would give me better results than an A/V (home theater) receiver?

IMHO is opposite, AVR wins, mostly because of bass management and room correction. You can expect better measurements from stereo amp, but not in a range, where you could hear the difference.

A 2.0 speaker setup can not take advantage of a 5.1 or 7.1 audio (Blu-ray or other)

That's not true. Since AVR has decoders, it can play 5.1/7.1 source on 2.0. For example you can play multichannel Atmos tracks. Or you can correct dialog level, when watching movies.

Also: can a A/V receiver "upgrade" a stereo signal to surround, and if so, is it worth it?

AVR can upmix stereo to multichannel. There are multiple algorithms like Dolby Surround or DTS Neural X. Yamaha AVRs can simulate acoustics of some rooms, like theatre, church or night club. All this assuming, that you have more speakers.

I like Dolby Sourround upmix for stereo, but only after adding front height speakers.

 

[A Surfer]

"Hi... my name is A Surfer... I'm an audioholic and it's been x years since I've listened critically. (ASR response "Hello Surfer"

I feel exactly the same way... lol.

Haha, so funny, and true. I actually in many ways credit this community with helping me get off of the critical listening crack.

Once you start to realize how much gear is actually either audibly transparent or pretty darn close, plus how small potential deviations actually are much of the time, it makes it easy to just say screw it and just chill out and listen for pleasure.

 

[FrantzM]

I'd suggest to the OP to read this post

Peace.

 

[Astoneroad]

Haha, so funny, and true. I actually in many ways credit this community with helping me get off of the critical listening crack.

Me too.

Once you start to realize how much gear is actually either audibly transparent or pretty darn close, plus how small potential deviations actually are much of the time, it makes it easy to just say screw it and just chill out and listen for pleasure.

Not to mention, if you're over 25, your hearing has started it's long slow decline. What that means is, your ears may not be able to hear it any longer, so your brain fills in the missing parts. That makes old guys with money great targets for the snake oil peddlers. (I'm lookin' at you Danny)

 

[Oddball]

Seems like OP is struggling with understanding the system requirements and own preferences, which is understandable if not experienced in many different areas that shape those. So couple of pointers.

There is little consensus apart from objective measurements of the various AVRs. So that is a good place to start. SINAD, wattage etc. Then there are features that distinguish AVRs also on more or less objective basis. Then there are the speakers, which might have even more impact on your sound than AVR alone. Then there is the room alone that will probably be the most important factor of them all.

Good AVR will definitely be capable of reproducing good stereo unless you go with some really hard to drive speakers or want to listen at 110 dB at MLP in a large/r room (which BTW won't work because speakers capable of that are out of your price range). It will also be able to up mix stereo to multi-channel using various algorithms, depending on the brand.

Another point is that room correction is (for many) a very important AVR feature. There is no consensus with respect to which one is the best, but Dirac often seems to be called the "best". YPAO which is Yamaha is not often praised. Audyssey and ARC are another 2 systems, both of which get mixed input, with Audyssey being wider spread and having literally tens of various improvement tools, so being more flexible. There are more "exotic" room correction systems but not really in this price range except for Lyngdorf TDAI - 1120 (Eur 2K) which is 2 ch integrated amp with Room Perfect room correction (but has its limitations). Room Perfect is the only room correction system that requires measurements of the whole room, but unfortunately don't have experience to recommend it. Seems like the owners do like it thought.

Between the two AVRs, I would get Denon, but would not go 4800H. Either 3800H or 6800H. Understand that 6800H is starting to sell for Eur 2K, which is a great deal. 3800H could be had around 1K on a good deal. For your use case, would go with 3800H and spend more towards the speakers. Dirac will be extra for both so look at the pricing. Audyssey comes onboard for free but will require at least Eur 20 app for tweaking. Perhaps also worth looking into Onkyo AVRs that come with Dirac for free. RZ-30 or RZ-50.

Final point are subwoofers. None of the speakers in your price range will be full range, so sub might or might not make sense based on your preferences. Need to sort that out yourself.

Good luck with the project.

 

[twsecrest]

I see. I was thinking more in terms of BD/UHD discs of movies in mono/stereo. Not sure if it makes sense to send the same audio signal to five speakers, or if the AVR somehow artificially creates something resembling a surround experience.

I'm pretty sure I would never want to do that with music that was intended to be listened to in mono/stereo.

Devices like modern A/V receivers can do a fake surround sound from a 2.0 speaker setup, it's more of a sales gimmick than something practical.

 

[Oddball]

Devices like modern A/V receivers can do a fake surround sound from a 2.0 speaker setup, it's more of a sales gimmick than something practical.

That’s what your opinion is. They do what they are supposed do do. For some people it works, for some it does not. Obviously there is no “true” way to add additional channels as they do not exist to start with.

 

[Natchie]

My Yamaha receiver has a setting to drop multi-channel code and just play the sound "purely", without the add-on features. In this way, you can still get the stereo sound.

 

[ryusmarty]

A good avr with Dirac (Denon 3800h plus Dirac license or Onkyo Rz50 with Dirac included) is what I* would go for.

This will eliminate any future regret of not going for a surround capable setup when I will (for sure) feel the need for it. And if ever I feel that the AVR is not doing too well for stereo listening, I can always add a stereo amp using the pre-outs for the front Left and Right. Problem solved with least regret.

Edit: typo

 

[Des Esseintes]

Between the two AVRs, I would get Denon, but would not go 4800H. Either 3800H or 6800H. Understand that 6800H is starting to sell for Eur 2K, which is a great deal. 3800H could be had around 1K on a good deal. For your use case, would go with 3800H and spend more towards the speakers. Dirac will be extra for both so look at the pricing. Audyssey comes onboard for free but will require at least Eur 20 app for tweaking. Perhaps also worth looking into Onkyo AVRs that come with Dirac for free. RZ-30 or RZ-50.

Thank you for the recommendation. Why 3800H or 6800H rather than 4800H? This review by amirm seems to indicate that the 3800H is much worse than the 4800H as far as the DAC is concerned.

 

[Oddball]

I would like to see people telling difference in double blind test between 85dB SINAD and 95dB SINAD. Both should be below audible range and that is why 3800H is most recommended AVR on various forums for budget and value buyers. Give other similar features between 3800H and 4800H I don't think that products are differentiated enough. 6800H has higher channel count (including front wides), more watts and should also have SINAD around 100dB - did not check as not on the market for it. First two features clearly differentiate 6800H.

If money is no object and SINAD is a concern, I do recommend Marantz AV-10 processor with 107dB SINAD. Gives you a peace of mind that you can't do better than that, but for a hefty price.

 

[Des Esseintes]

I think I'll go with the Denon 4800H since the price difference with the 3800H is negligible and it's available in silver. Anyway big thanks to everyone who posted here, if you want to help me buy speakers, I started a thread here.

 

[Vacceo]

Objectively: you have a set of requirements that the Denon (or other AVRs) can meet and which no 2 channel amp can.

AVRs also bring room correction which, if you choose to use it, will improve your sound in ways that no amplifier can.

There is no evidence that a 2 channel amp offers a sound advantage. Plenty of options though.

For me it's simple: sometimes you want to hear movies in all their surround sound glory - you need an AVR.

With the increasing volume of gaming as a leissure activity, multichannel becomes a huge plus. That is the kind of content that truly shines with well-placed sound.

I would like to see people telling difference in double blind test between 85dB SINAD and 95dB SINAD. Both should be below audible range and that is why 3800H is most recommended AVR on various forums for budget and value buyers. Give other similar features between 3800H and 4800H I don't think that products are differentiated enough. 6800H has higher channel count (including front wides), more watts and should also have SINAD around 100dB - did not check as not on the market for it. First two features clearly differentiate 6800H.

If money is no object and SINAD is a concern, I do recommend Marantz AV-10 processor with 107dB SINAD. Gives you a peace of mind that you can't do better than that, but for a hefty price.

I hope Marantz produces a lower count channel AVP for a fraction of the price. To be honest, and I agree with you, the AV 10 is a fantastic product not just for films, but for pretty much any source you connect.