Why Roon?

[symphara]

Snake oil implies no perceivable (or measurable) benefit. This is not the case with Roon - DSP, multiple endpoints, seamless integration of local and streaming library. I have yet to find any other software that achieves the things that Roon achieves.

You may not like Roon and it may not add value to your set up. But for me, and for many others, it does. This added value is demonstrable and therefore Roon cannot, in any way, shape or form, be described as "snake oil".

I don’t see those as serious features but fluff. Just like the fancy looks of fancy cables. Everything about this company screams audiophile snake oil to me. At the end of the day the core thing is a frontend. Laughable.

It would be like having to pay $7.99 monthly for a software-only version of the Harmony remote, done by your phone. Sure, it’s a bit of convenience that you may or may not enjoy, with crazy pricing attached.

But I’m telling you, once they start selling $1000 power cables for those PCs in fancy cases, I’ll give it a second thought.

 

[Sukie]

I don’t see those as serious features but fluff. Just like the fancy looks of fancy cables. Everything about this company screams audiophile snake oil to me. At the end of the day the core thing is a frontend. Laughable.

You're entitled to your opinion about the value (or not) of Roon - obviously. But Roon offers a combination of features that are not available from any other piece of software. These features are demonstrable and measurable, so not "snake oil". That isn't opinion, it's fact

 

[symphara]

You're entitled to your opinion about the value (or not) of Roon - obviously. But Roon offers a combination of features that are not available from any other piece of software. These features are demonstrable and measurable, so not "snake oil". That isn't opinion, it's fact

Well, super expensive cables have the undeniable feature of moving current around. And they generally look awesome. It’s not like you’re paying for nothing!

I despise everything about Roon’s business model. It seems they took to heart the saying “for every lack of credibility, there’s a surplus of naïvity”.

There’s literally no reason to charge an ongoing fee for this product, except to rip off people. And their one-off pricing is a joke. In my opinion, of course. I wouldn’t use it if it were an ad-supported freebee, I just don’t care about its “features” and, even if I wanted to run the service on an always-on machine in the house, which I don’t, most of them are simply altogether unusable for our household, since right now we’re Apple Music/Spotify users.

 

[elvisizer]

There’s literally no reason to charge an ongoing fee for this product

it is standard practice for SAAS products, though, and Roon clearly considers their product to be SAAS even though it's not centrally hosted.

 

[Sukie]

I despise everything about Roon’s business model. It seems they took to heart the saying “for every lack of credibility, there’s a surplus of naïvity”.

If you could ease me out of my naivety by suggesting a software alternative that does all of the things that Roon does then I'd be grateful. What I'm after is:

1. System-wide DSP (including both PEQ and crossfeed) that I can use with local albums and Qobuz.
2. An ability to customise metadata for streaming albums as well as for local albums.
3. Seamless link between streaming albums and local albums in one easy to navigate library.
4. Multiple end points that can be controlled by different remotes (android apps and widows apps in particular), all of which can be DSP-ed (see above).

I have looked long and hard and cannot find anything, but maybe you can. Until an alternative can be found I am happy to pay an annual fee to Roon. My listening experience has been significantly enhanced by using Roon. It's far from perfect, but it does the job for me and ticks enough boxes to keep me happy.

 

[symphara]

it is standard practice for SAAS products, though, and Roon clearly considers their product to be SAAS even though it's not centrally hosted.

Their software is however not a service. They don't stream or host music, that is done at your separate expense, and have basically no recurring costs due to customers or mandatory interoperability maintenance.

Their pricing is so insane that it's about the same as a World of Warcraft subscription, which is fully hosted, and with lots of content updates. The largest, best MMO ever made. Vs a thin music fronted.

The Roon Nucleus is textbook audiophile snake oil. The cheaper one was a basic Intel NUC last time I checked, preloaded with a free OS, in a very nice enclosure, sold for several times its worth. With no storage, which they sold for several times its worth.

Last but not least, they want to lock you in with this Roon compatibility thing. So not only do you get utterly ripped off on hardware and software, but you need to make suboptimal buying decisions on the rest of your gear just to maintain compatibility with this bs.

Just waiting for that $1000 Roon PC power cable and I'll think about it.

 

[symphara]

If you could ease me out of my naivety by suggesting a software alternative that does all of the things that Roon does then I'd be grateful. What I'm after is:

1. System-wide DSP (including both PEQ and crossfeed) that I can use with local albums and Qobuz.
2. An ability to customise metadata for streaming albums as well as for local albums.
3. Seamless link between streaming albums and local albums in one easy to navigate library.
4. Multiple end points that can be controlled by different remotes (android apps and widows apps in particular), all of which can be DSP-ed (see above).

I have looked long and hard and cannot find anything, but maybe you can. Until an alternative can be found I am happy to pay an annual fee to Roon. My listening experience has been significantly enhanced by using Roon. It's far from perfect, but it does the job for me and ticks enough boxes to keep me happy.

So you’re paying 10.99 a month for some DSP? Are you sure you need it? Did you actually have a problem playing your local music and using the Qobuz app? These are rather straight-forward, common things.

I’m not sure what you mean by “customise metadata”. Like adding artwork or setting the track titles? That‘s absolutely trivial to do, whenever I rip a CD in fact foobar2000 puts in the titles automatically, and getting album artwork is just one image search away. You can edit anything you want, and unless you have some unusual habits, setting album metadata is a one-time thing. Streaming apps are all polished and come with track titles and album artwork.

As far as I’m concerned, using my phone to play music stored on my NAS is a downgrade in terms of experience. You need, at the very least, to unlock the thing every time you want to pause playback, or restart a track. Sometimes you have to switch to the app, or restart it. My integrated amp on the other side has a remote control with a screen and one can browse UPnP, play (and get the album artwork on the remote LCD, so the pretty fluff is covered), and all those useful controls like pause/next/prev are just one click away.

If I didn’t have that though, I think local playback is too trivial a matter to warrant a full time running PC and a paid subscription. Roon is “solving” a problem we just don’t have, for a very hefty cost.

You do whatever you want with your money, but I’d much rather spend 10.99 a month towards buying some music, which will enhance my collection and support the artist, instead of burning electricity on a server I don’t need.

 

[Sukie]

So you’re paying 10.99 a month for some DSP? Are you sure you need it? Did you actually have a problem playing your local music and using the Qobuz app? These are rather straight-forward, common things.

I’m not sure what you mean by “customise metadata”. Like adding artwork or setting the track titles? That‘s absolutely trivial to do, whenever I rip a CD in fact foobar2000 puts in the titles automatically, and getting album artwork is just one image search away. You can edit anything you want, and unless you have some unusual habits, setting album metadata is a one-time thing. Streaming apps are all polished and come with track titles and album artwork.

As far as I’m concerned, using my phone to play music stored on my NAS is a downgrade in terms of experience. You need, at the very least, to unlock the thing every time you want to pause playback, or restart a track. Sometimes you have to switch to the app, or restart it. My integrated amp on the other side has a remote control with a screen and one can browse UPnP, play (and get the album artwork on the remote LCD, so the pretty fluff is covered), and all those useful controls like pause/next/prev are just one click away.

If I didn’t have that though, I think local playback is too trivial a matter to warrant a full time running PC and a paid subscription. Roon is “solving” a problem we just don’t have, for a very hefty cost.

You do whatever you want with your money, but I’d much rather spend 10.99 a month towards buying some music, which will enhance my collection and support the artist, instead of burning electricity on a server I don’t need.

So, in answer to my question "can you suggest a software alternative?" the answer is no, because you don't need/want the many features of Roon. That's fair enough, but I do need/want them. This doesn't make me naïve, it just makes me a consumer making a consumer choice.

I work from home and have an always-on fanless Windows PC (low power consumption) that can cope with my limited work-related demands and also runs Roon faultlessly. I can easily access this Core from multiple endpoints, using the same UI in every case.

I can tell you, categorically, that using Roon has enhanced my listening experience to the extent that I am willing to pay for it. I don't really have anything else to add.

 

[SKBubba]

Their software is however not a service. They don't stream or host music, that is done at your separate expense, and have basically no recurring costs due to customers or mandatory interoperability maintenance.

Actually, they have recurring costs for licensing the metadata they attach to your albums. They also pay MQA per decode.

Yes, you could look up the album info on wikipedia or allmusic or whatever. But the way it's integrated lets you deep dive into discographies, related artists, albums, writers, producers, genres, similar albums or artists you might like, etc., and instantly play or catalog whatever you find, whether local or streaming. And you can do all that seamlessly from your desktop, tablet or phone. There is nothing else like it.

Regardless, I didn't like the idea of subscriptions, either. But most commercial software is going that direction. It's a more predictable and sustainable business model. The consumer benefits from a more stable product and ongoing development and maintenance.

Bottom line, roon is a premium product that carries a premium price. For me, it's well worth it.

 

[Bastia]

A few months ago I was curious as well and tried Roon for a month. I installed it on my Synology NAS and used the Android and (I'm not 100% sure anymore) iOS app for iPad. I concluded it's not (yet) worth the price for me. While I liked the 'smart' library features based on my own music library and the 'classy' magazine like interface (which seems to be a bit controversial among its existing users), I don't have any proper endpoints yet (besides the apps), so for now the subscription price or the 700 EUR up front seems to be a bit too much for me.

After Roon I did end up using Plexamp. Not long ago I bought a Lifetime Plex Premium membership since I use it for video's, so Plexamp came with that for 'free'. Plexamp is actually pretty neat if you're looking for an app that plays your own library (from anywhere) with smart playlist features. Perhaps not as sophisticated as Roon, but it's good enough that I would like them to go down the multi-room path and compete with Roon.

 

[AdamG]

A few months ago I was curious as well and tried Roon for a month. I installed it on my Synology NAS and used the Android and (I'm not 100% sure anymore) iOS app for iPad. I concluded it's not (yet) worth the price for me. While I liked the 'smart' library features based on my own music library and the 'classy' magazine like interface (which seems to be a bit controversial among its existing users), I don't have any proper endpoints yet (besides the apps), so for now the subscription price or the 700 EUR up front seems to be a bit too much for me.

After Roon I did end up using Plexamp. Not long ago I bought a Lifetime Plex Premium membership since I use it for video's, so Plexamp came with that for 'free'. Plexamp is actually pretty neat if you're looking for an app that plays your own library (from anywhere) with smart playlist features. Perhaps not as sophisticated as Roon, but it's good enough that I would like them to go down the multi-room path and compete with Roon.

Welcome Aboard @Bastia.

 

[symphara]

Actually, they have recurring costs for licensing the metadata they attach to your albums. They also pay MQA per decode.

Yes, you could look up the album info on wikipedia or allmusic or whatever. But the way it's integrated lets you deep dive into discographies, related artists, albums, writers, producers, genres, similar albums or artists you might like, etc., and instantly play or catalog whatever you find, whether local or streaming. And you can do all that seamlessly from your desktop, tablet or phone. There is nothing else like it.

Regardless, I didn't like the idea of subscriptions, either. But most commercial software is going that direction. It's a more predictable and sustainable business model. The consumer benefits from a more stable product and ongoing development and maintenance.

Bottom line, roon is a premium product that carries a premium price. For me, it's well worth it.

I find it hard to believe they pay per MQA decode, and whatever metadata they licence certainly is just a tiny fraction of what they charge.

You think the extortionate price guarantees some kind of quality. I think nothing of the sort, it just guarantees the customer being fleeced. Quality and lack of can come at any price.

I am still flabbergasted that a Roon subscription, which provides no music and basically nothing of value, just fluff, is more expensive than Spotify, which comes with metadata, and (almost certainly better) recommendations, and most importantly, the music itself!

And sorry, out of principle I don't do business with companies charging $1500 for NUCs - not even ones in "audiophile, low vibration" cases.

Roon is not a premium product for a premium price. It is typical audiophile snake oil.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

I find it hard to believe they pay per MQA decode,

They have officially stated that.

 

[symphara]

They have officially stated that.

They also say "Nucleus is the ultimate appliance built for extreme audio quality" about their grossly overpriced NUC.

Look, these chancers can say anything. Some people will buy it. They clearly have cornered a (hopefully small) market with money to burn with their subscription pricing, at levels similar to content subscriptions but without the content.

It strikes me particularly silly to pay per-MQA decode. This is no argument in favour of their sales pitch. If you want MQA you have to get a full MQA-capable DAC anyway.

If someone thought there was no absurd way left to part an audiophile from his or her money, and all magical cables and magical anti-vibration amplifier feet have been invented, there comes Roon.

I really wonder what's next.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

They also say "Nucleus is the ultimate appliance built for extreme audio quality" about their grossly overpriced NUC.

Typical audio hyperbole and not a statement about a business relationship.
Sorry I intruded on your rant.

 

[symphara]

I'm surprised that the people who rile up against MQA and the MQA-fication of stereo audio don't say anything about the Roon-ification of devices.

The protocol Roon uses, to the best of my knowledge, is proprietary. They managed to embrace and extend UPnP so you pay a relatively large subscription fee to listen to your own music, and in the background they're aggressively pushing their protocol to hardware manufacturers. It's not a pretty scenario if we get to the point where manufacturers stop having UPnP compliance in favour of Roon compliance. It's much worse than Dolby, at least I don't need a Dolby subscription to watch my own movies.

Typical audio hyperbole and not a statement about a business relationship.
Sorry I intruded on your rant.

I don't like cons. Paying several times the price of hardware because you know exactly what you're getting but like the label or the pretty case is one thing. Paying it because you believe their marketing hyperbole (and the friendly reviews in audiophile magazines) is something else.

 

[Ralph_Cramden]

Roon seems nice, but its requirements are way too fat. Running LMS on a Pi 4, piCorePlayer/Jivelite endpoints on Pi Zeros, Sonos Ones in some rooms. DSP in RME DAC, and full room correction on the Sonos, everything controlled via Material Skin or Jivelite touchscreens. I don't have a local music library, use Qobuz and Spotify, both of which are fully supported in LMS. Oh, and it's all open source and freely available...

 

[Zensō]

Roon certainly has its issues, and it's arguably overpriced, but calling it snake oil is a bit of a stretch. Snake oil implies a scam, and from what I can see, the claims Roon makes are for the most part verifiable and within the bounds of normal marketing.

 

[symphara]

Roon certainly has its issues, and it's arguably overpriced, but calling it snake oil is a bit of a stretch. Snake oil implies a scam, and from what I can see, the claims Roon makes are for the most part verifiable and within the bounds of normal marketing.

Look up prices for an i3/4Gb RAM Intel NUC, add a 2Gb SSD, compare to the Roon Nucleus price (same hardware, nicer case).

 

[Zensō]

Look up prices for an i3/4Gb RAM Intel NUC, add a 2Gb SSD, compare to the Roon Nucleus price (same hardware, nicer case).

Yeah, I know. I have a NUC and I'm listening to music through it right now (NUC/ROCK>RPi4/Ropieee>RME ADI-2 DAC FS>HD660S). I guess it just feels like Roon is a minor player in the larger audiophile scam that includes $5K power cords and $20K DACs.