Why does my music start sounding crappier once I go past 70db on my AVR ?

[bodhi]

The real solution starts with real measurements, there is no way around it. This thread should have put on hold until those are available.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

The real solution starts with real measurements, there is no way around it. This thread should have put on hold until those are available.

What is not clear to you?

 

[JktHifi]

This is the question that I’ve asked many times and nobody can answer it:

“More channel, more distortion?”

I asked this because SINAD of bridgeable mono amp is better than stereo amp. And SINAD of stereo amp is better than 3 channels amp. And so on, until 13.2 channels or more. I found the SINAD measurements from this forum only.

 

[tmuikku]

Okay after reading and thinking about it, I'm just not sure I want a subwoofer or even two of them for that matter. Plus I don't have the room for them, I very much dislike clutter and I've seen people setup before all lined up against the wall and I don't like that look, plus it's more complicated. Also I'm not a bass head. But I do agree I need more bass than what a 6.5" bookshelf's can give me.

One thing I've learned is that I need more clean room filling sound I want something that will play clean up to 80-85 instead of only about 76db and 6.5" bookshelf isn't cutting it. Many have suggested I need to get bigger speakers and keep the AVR, or at least get bigger speakers first and then see. Obviously I need to go with tower speakers or bigger bookshelves that have 8" woofers. I want to be blown away but not overkill. So if you think any of the following speakers are too big for my living room or there not a good match for someone sitting only 9 feet away let me know. Specs for my living room area is in my post #83. The thing is if I do as some of you want and just get subs and keep my 6.5" elacs what if then I'm still not satisfied somehow and I'm up still buying bigger speakers and that those new bigger speakers don't need a sub and I've already have the subs I'll be pissed. I don't want to continue rebuying stuff to replace over and over. I'm thinking of budgeting around $2000-3000 for towers or bigger bookshelves that have a 8" woofers. Is what I'm saying have any merit about the subs ?

Maybe something like the Wharfedale LINTON Heritage (6 ohms sensitivity: 90 dB) I like it's sound sig according to reviews a warmish smooth sound. I want something that will play good with older recordings like older Metallica stuff. There's also the Polk Audio Reserve R700 (8 ohms sensitivity: 88 dB) I guess in the end will my AVR Onkyo TX-NR6100 do these either these speaker options justice ?

Hi,

there is so many brands and makes and models in your posts that I'll give some food for thought, how you can reason the stuff without reading marketing material, to estimate which speaker might work better if you need more SPL capability before bad sound.

What makes speaker distort? the electro-mechanical properties in a driver gets to limits and result is sound that deviates from the original.
How does it happen? Sound wavelength gets very long at low frequencies: while 340Hz is only 1meter long, 34Hz is already 10 meters. What this means is that to keep loudspeaker frequency response "flat" with static cone size like in 6.5" nominal, then the excursion must go up the lower the frequency and it doesn't go up linearly but has to quadruple for every octave. If reaching some SPL at 200Hz needs 1mm of excursion from a woofer, then reaching 100Hz with same SPL would require 4mm, 50Hz would require 16mm, 25Hz would require 64mm. One could quadruple the cone area instead, now the 25Hz would require only 16mm of excursion, or 50Hz the 4mm. This is peak-to-peak excursion, volume displacement.

Ok whats the problem? if there is bass note at 50Hz that sends the cone to high excursion (of its max capability) the woofer parameters change for the whole bandwidth. On a small two way speaker this affects sound all the way up to perhaps 2-3kHz and beyond. Lets pause time here and think: the voice coil has moved greatly in the gap, suspension stiffens, some heat builds up, many things happen in the motor that change its electrical and mechanical parameters compared to resting position. Now that we are at this peak excursion with our low note there is also high frequency components playing, like click sound of the kick, or singing, guitars, everything, but as the cone is out due to the low note all the high frequencies for the whole woofer bandwidth are distorted.

Same could happen with a tweeter, if the crossover is too low, the tweeter would distort due to long travel, parameters changing, distortion.

Now, how to take advantage on this simple knowledge? if we use logic on this basic concept of minimizing excursion we can now reason what kind of a speaker likely has more SPL capability before bad sound: cone excursion for any frequency can be reduced by increasing ways of the speaker which reduces bandwidth of each way. Or increasing cone area. Or use better transducers that can do high excursion without electro-mechanical parameters changing too much, with low distortion. To get extra octave down, or 6db more head room with some particular excursion, you need to quadruple cone area. Instead of single 6.5" driver go for 4, or equivalent like single 12" for a two way box. To reduce likelihood of amplifier distortion more sensitive speakers would be reasonable, which again means big woofers. To get very good drivers that do get higher excursion without too much distortion they cost so much you simply can't get finished speaker below few thousand with all supply chain profit margins pumping the price up. If parts cost a thousand, manufacturing another, the speaker prices is 4-10k.

Or, use high pass filter to slash the (woofer) excursion to quarter, for every octave, or 6db more headroom per octave you cut if its the woofer excursion that causes the bad sound. For very good system we don't want to do this, ideally we would want full 20-20kHz audible bandwidth full blast SPL capability. You can test with the high pass filter though, listen at the verge of bad sound, then engage the high pass filter for 40Hz and see if the sound cleaned up. Raise to 80Hz to see if it cleaned up. If it did, you can hopefully now estimate how to get there with lows intact.

edit. checked the speakers you listed and it applying above reasoning they probably play louder before distortion than speakers what you currently have.

 

[bodhi]

What is not clear to you?

What is wrong with the sound?

What I would like to see frequency responses with a few SPL settings, even better if calibrated but not necessary.

 

[ZolaIII]

@Seany excursion (amount how much cone moves) for 4x 6.5" driver's playing will rughly be the same to one 12“. So going either with towers that will have 2x woofers of same size or buying a little bigger speakers won't do much. Especially it won't do much for AVR's amplifier that is struggling with such high output and adding distortion when pushed so hard. Meaning that even if you go with old fashion three way speakers with big woofer (Linton or L100) which would be about 3 dB more (which is twice the power less from amplifier at same sound loudness level) efficient you probably wouldn't hit loudness you want and sounding really good. And you wouldn't save much on space either. I do like your minimal things maximum space concept. There is a difrece between woofers and subwoofer and it's mainly in that, that subwoofer is constructed to be able to move more and more linear (bigger magnet, more rigid cone but heavier and therefore less efficient...).
Recommendation to go with subwoofer's is because it will work and it will cost you least as you will continue to use what you already have with them, plus you can move them so that you can best fill in the holes in main and low bass area's which you won't exactly be able to do with speakers. Why would it work? Well try that other app I told you while playing music and you will see how constant peak in most music is about 80 Hz and it's considerably bigger than let's say 150~200 Hz uper bass (for the sakes of argument about 10 dB). And you switch that load from AVR and speakers (high pass filter) to the subwoofer's so now your AVR nead's to pump almost 5x less power and do it without sweat.
Of course it's not either straight forward or easiest thing to do tuning and setting up subwoofer's with rest of the system nor very convenient but after you finally do it properly you easily forget about all of that. You do have enough space that it won't look overcrowded if I can accomplish the same in almost half sized room with 2x 10“ sub's and speakers that are bigger (much deeper). I won't recommend you to buy Linton's, 500W Hypex amp and pre amp/DAC or DSP for 5K $/€ and in the end get worse results and more complicated and harder to menage/operate system able to accommodate less things (surround Dolby's decoding, HDMI input and such).
In the end it's entirely your choice.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

What is wrong with the sound?

What I would like to see frequency responses with a few SPL settings, even better if calibrated but not necessary.

Distortion due to clipping and too small speakers. There is no need to measure anymore. It's quite clear cut case.

 

[Seany]

Yes, if you get bigger speakers (I'd just buy the JBL L100 classics & be done) you will not need a sub. if you incorporate a sub using your small speakers you should have hi pass/low pass filter on your amp.

I don't want the JBL's I'd be more interested in the Wharfedale LINTON Heritage.

 

[Seany]

Okay new people see post #83 for details then post #109 for the answer and then post #131 for what I decided to do about getting bigger sound.

 

[Seany]

You are missing that you are not at 76db, you are, by your own measurements hitting in the mid 90 db range. The number on your receiver is just that, a number, it tells you nothing, except you have turned it up louder or quieter. It does not tell you if you are clipping, it does not tell you if your speakers are distorting, it does not tell you if you are using 5 watts of power or 100 watts.

So all that said, given your statement you don't want to use subwoofers and would rather have floor standing speakers, I am going to let you in on some easy science: Hoffman's Iron Law- 1) Bass Extension, 2) Efficiency, 3) Small Enclosure, pick two. To maximize the efficiency of your systems (i.e. lessen the chance you need to get a bigger receiver or amplifier) and get good bass levels, the larger the enclosure the better. To get what you want, I would skip past the Wharfedale and like another poster suggested, look at something like the JBL L100, with its 12" woofer and relatively high efficiency.

See post #109. No I'm not hitting the 90 db range, there's no way the app is crap unreliable.

 

[Seany]

@Seany excursion (amount how much cone moves) for 4x 6.5" driver's playing will rughly be the same to one 12“. So going either with towers that will have 2x woofers of same size or buying a little bigger speakers won't do much. Especially it won't do much for AVR's amplifier that is struggling with such high output and adding distortion when pushed so hard. Meaning that even if you go with old fashion three way speakers with big woofer (Linton or L100) which would be about 3 dB more (which is twice the power less from amplifier at same sound loudness level) efficient you probably wouldn't hit loudness you want and sounding really good. And you wouldn't save much on space either. I do like your minimal things maximum space concept. There is a difrece between woofers and subwoofer and it's mainly in that, that subwoofer is constructed to be able to move more and more linear (bigger magnet, more rigid cone but heavier and therefore less efficient...).
Recommendation to go with subwoofer's is because it will work and it will cost you least as you will continue to use what you already have with them, plus you can move them so that you can best fill in the holes in main and low bass area's which you won't exactly be able to do with speakers. Why would it work? Well try that other app I told you while playing music and you will see how constant peak in most music is about 80 Hz and it's considerably bigger than let's say 150~200 Hz uper bass (for the sakes of argument about 10 dB). And you switch that load from AVR and speakers (high pass filter) to the subwoofer's so now your AVR nead's to pump almost 5x less power and do it without sweat.
Of course it's not either straight forward or easiest thing to do tuning and setting up subwoofer's with rest of the system nor very convenient but after you finally do it properly you easily forget about all of that. You do have enough space that it won't look overcrowded if I can accomplish the same in almost half sized room with 2x 10“ sub's and speakers that are bigger (much deeper). I won't recommend you to buy Linton's, 500W Hypex amp and pre amp/DAC or DSP for 5K $/€ and in the end get worse results and more complicated and harder to menage/operate system able to accommodate less things (surround Dolby's decoding, HDMI input and such).
In the end it's entirely your choice.

Well said, but you don't think if I got the Linton's or the Polk R700 I wouldn't be able to play a bit louder and clear ?

 

[ROOSKIE]

Well said, but you don't think if I got the Linton's or the Polk R700 I wouldn't be able to play a bit louder and clear ?

Yes.
Absolutely both speakers will play louder than the DBR62 in large part due to having much better bass ability.

Try either one. But I suspect the R700 will be able to play a but louder vs the Lintons at the extreme.
Something like the JBL 580 and especially the 590 which are on sale will play even louder. They will blow the Lintons and Polks out if going really really loud. Plus they are not actually very bright sounding. But to many the looks are an issue. I actually like the look. $1k a pair new direct from Harman/JBL ($500ea) for the 590's, note they truly can rock. Yes your AVR can drive them and they require LESS power to play at the same in room SPL vs your bookshelves.

Studio 590 | 250-watt, dual 8" floorstanding loudspeaker

The JBL® Studio 590 floorstanding loudspeaker brings professional-quality sound to the home experience. The Studio 590 uses the technology that JBL engineers developed for pro-audio loudspeakers to deliver accurate, powerful sound to your living room. The Studio 590 is a perfect complement to...

www.harmanaudio.com

Also BestBuy is clearing out the Non-meta KEF R11 in Walnut for $3300 a pair ($1650 each) move fast if you want those they will sell out within a week or less. Yes your AVR can drive them and they require LESS power to play at the same in room SPL vs your bookshelves.

https://www.bestbuy.com/site/searchpage.jsp?st=kef+r11&_dyncharset=UTF-8&_dynSessConf=&id=pcat17071&type=page&sc=Global&cp=1&nrp=&sp=&qp=&list=n&af=true&iht=y&usc=All+Categories&ks=960&keys=keys

Also bear in mind you have tone controls. If any speaker is to bright, turning the trebble down 1-3db should create a tonality you like.

 

[ZolaIII]

Well said, but you don't think if I got the Linton's or the Polk R700 I wouldn't be able to play a bit louder and clear ?

Linton's have specified 3 dB higher SPL (90 dB) while Polk's R700 are specified with the same SPL but come with two 8" woffer's so arguably could go 3 dB louder if feed with enough power (4x more power which you by the way don't have).
Both can pass without sub regarding response down to 40 Hz, but with two SVS SB-2000 you would have it all the way down to 20 Hz and it could go considerably louder (let's say 9/12 dB R700/Linton's) and without having to get considerably stronger power amplifier (they come with 500 W RMS inbuilt one's).
So you get 3 dB more with Linton's for same amount of power (+3 dB = 2x W) and that certainly won't make much of a difference. Interestingly Polk is giving away it's entry level PSW 10 sub's (which actually went well on Eren's measurements) on purchases over 500$ (one sub per one purchase).

PSW 10 Subwoofer - 10" 100W Powered Woofer | Polk Audio

The PSW 10 subwoofer features a 10" woofer in a vented front panel port enclosure to add deep bass excitement to your music or movie sound system.

www.polkaudio.com

But those are too small and week for you.
By the way you can get two SVS SB-2000 right now from Amazon (on sale 550$ a peace) for the price of single Polk R700 speaker.

 

[Matt Bell]

Well said, but you don't think if I got the Linton's or the Polk R700 I wouldn't be able to play a bit louder and clear ?

Do you have a local hi-fi store that sells the Lintons or Polks and would let you try them out at home?

That way you'd be much less likely to make a purchase you end up regretting.

Alternatively you could buy from a seller with a good returns policy (but be sure to read the small print first!)

 

[Deleted member 48726]

Well said, but you don't think if I got the Linton's or the Polk R700 I wouldn't be able to play a bit louder and clear ?

Of course you will. They are larger speakers and more efficient. Until new materials have been invented there is no substitute for larger drivers and louder music really. It sounds kinda redneck, but it really is like that.
Next step is finding out if you need more amplification.

 

[ROOSKIE]

Linton's have specified 3 dB higher SPL (90 dB) while Polk's R700 are specified with the same SPL but come with two 8" woffer's so arguably could go 3 dB louder if feed with enough power (4x more power which you by the way don't have).
Both can pass without sub regarding response down to 40 Hz, but with two SVS SB-2000 you would have it all the way down to 20 Hz and it could go considerably louder (let's say 9/12 dB R700/Linton's) and without having to get considerably stronger power amplifier (they come with 500 W RMS inbuilt one's).
So you get 3 dB more with Linton's for same amount of power (+3 dB = 2x W) and that certainly won't make much of a difference. Interestingly Polk is giving away it's entry level PSW 10 sub's (which actually went well on Eren's measurements) on purchases over 500$ (one sub per one purchase).

PSW 10 Subwoofer - 10" 100W Powered Woofer | Polk Audio

The PSW 10 subwoofer features a 10" woofer in a vented front panel port enclosure to add deep bass excitement to your music or movie sound system.

www.polkaudio.com

But those are too small and week for you.
By the way you can get two SVS SB-2000 right now from Amazon (on sale 550$ a peace) for the price of single Polk R700 speaker.

FYI, Lintons tested at 85/86db sensitivity at Erin's.

Wharfedale Linton 85th Anniversary Speaker Review

Wharfedale Linton 85th Anniversary Review

www.erinsaudiocorner.com

He doesn't want subs( yet)

 

[ZolaIII]

FYI, Lintons tested at 85/86db sensitivity at Erin's.

Wharfedale Linton 85th Anniversary Speaker Review

Wharfedale Linton 85th Anniversary Review

www.erinsaudiocorner.com

He doesn't want subs( yet)

I want to save him money (now), I used manufacturers SPL @ 1 m, 1W at 8 Ohms declarations. Eren did THD testing on those SPL's by the way Seany needs about 115 SPL levels in low bass (105 at his listening distance) and you don't get there politely and with lo THD with any of those, eventually L100 and 2x 500 W RMS 8 Ohms Hypex amp could do it and it still wouldn't be great.

 

[Sokel]

Dear Seany,your phone is only reliable on one or two things maybe,average and max.
Not many apps measure peaks.

In the measurement below you can see what happens:
- dark blue is my noise floor
- dark purple is average
- yellow is max
- red is peak

See how is going?See what you need to play at 85db(A) average?
You play way louder than you think and yes,a small bookself at 3 meters won't cut it.

 

[ROOSKIE]

I want to save him money (now), I used manufacturers SPL @ 1 m, 1W at 8 Ohms declarations. Eren did THD testing on those SPL's by the way Seany needs about 115 SPL levels in low bass (105 at his listening distance) and you don't get there politely and with lo THD with any of those, eventually L100 and 2x 500 W RMS 8 Ohms Hypex amp could do it and it still wouldn't be great.

I think he should buy larger speakers 1st and see how that goes.
That seems simpler for him as he is obviously just starting out and adding subs in correctly is not easy for a lot of people. Maybe most people.
If he truly wants epic loud and wants that to include 30hrz at 105+db then add subs later.

In any case it seems he would benefit from larger speakers so I suggest he get those 1st. The bass may be enough for him. He never said he was a bass head and is using DBR62's right now. A lot of folks do not need super low bass to be room shaking. If it turns out he wants that then yes get good subs. Such output mostly benefits movie explosions and not very much music (though some of course)

OP in order of estimated output ability 40hrz and up, a small list of the stuff I and others mentioned
JBL L100 = most total SPL potential upgrade
JBL 590 = a lot
KEF R11 = a lot
POLK R700 = almost a lot
Wharfedale Linton = least total SPL upgrade but still significant
and then notably below these are your current DBR62's

Dear Seany,your phone is only reliable on one or two things maybe,average and max.
Not many apps measure peaks.

In the measurement below you can see what happens:
- dark blue is my noise floor
- dark purple is average
- yellow is max
- red is peak

See how is going?See what you need to play at 85db(A) average?
You play way louder than you think and yes,a small bookself at 3 meters won't cut it.

No Android apps are accurate. He has Android, there are zero accurate apps due to all of the different models. Any app needs to be calibrated to that phone. Only Apple has a few apps that are calibrated to known iPhone models.

I mention Andoid's AudioTool for $7.99 and 3.5mm jack mic but that will require the phone still has headphone output.

 

[Sokel]

No Android apps are accurate. He has Android, there are zero accurate apps due to all of the different models. Any app needs to be calibrated to that phone. Only Apple has a few apps that are calibrated to known iPhone models.

I mention Andoid's AudioTool for $7.99 and 3.5mm jack mic but that will require the phone still has headphone output.

I have calibrated REW against a true SPL meter and comparing with Android apps is not far.
But none of them measures peaks as a true spl meter or a calibrated REW.