Why do records sound so much better than digital?

[Doodski]

I'm not going to go out and buy vinyl but if I did have shelves and cabinets full of vinyl I sure would be into all that vinyl comes with. I see that some here are fortunate to have a bunch of vinyl on hand and it's good to see they still use it and caretake for it.

 

[JP]

A non-answer is yours

You know I'm not a spoon-feeder, though I think it's rather trivial to understand. The determination of rational in the context of your arguments is not universal.

 

[JP]

What have I said about vinyl that isn't completely honest?
The whole vinyl revival has been build on a pile of lies and half truths put out by the
lamestream media. All the talk about the glorious, (non-staircased) beautiful analog sound
being the pinnacle for audio reproduction
Look at the BS Mobile Fidelity has been passing off on the public. ROTFLMAO

It's your intolerance of people enjoying it regardless, even if they fully understand the what and why.

 

[MattHooper]

You talk about a strawmen.

I definitely don't want to strawman what you wrote. I want to understand it.

But the way you wrote it seemed to imply a worry about people coming here could be in danger of being brainwashed about vinyl.
Plus you continually post in these threads, responding to what ASR members are writing, in a way that suggests you think some of us are part of the problem.

So it wasn't clear what you meant.

If indeed you see ASR as a place to get honest information about gear, including vinyl, and you don't see ASR members as spreading misinformation, then your continued need to respond to people here telling them the same thing over and over "Vinyl is not SOTA" still seems puzzling and not exactly advancing anything, since it's been said a billion times even in this thread.

 

[MattHooper]

You know I'm not a spoon-feeder,

Certainly not.

though I think it's rather trivial to understand. The determination of rational in the context of your arguments is not universal.

I don't find that very clear at all.

Do you mean my argument as to the nature of rationality itself was unsound? That there is some other account of rationality? If so...what is your alternative?

But if my account is sound, then the rationality of playing vinyl for some people, like myself, follows.

Thus far you seem to be simply indicating an objection, without actually explaining it.

I am interested in your viewpoint. It's up to you if you want to be understood by the other party, or remain cryptic. (And I don't really understand the desire for the latter, on a discussion board).

 

[Sal1950]

But the way you wrote it seemed to imply a worry about people coming here could be in danger of being brainwashed about vinyl.

Many people come here already brainwashed on all the things I listed, you know that.
In the main the only reason I repeat, is I get so many arguments over my posts.
I'm not just posting out of thin air, they are all responses.
Accept the facts and move on.

 

[beagleman]

Which real world limitation did I miss?

Do you honestly think Background noise and frequency response are the only things that Separate Vinyl from anything else??

There are a half dozen or more things that vinyl alters.
That is common knowledge.
I feel like if I have to explain all this, that maybe you are not fully into the audio or vinyl game to begin with.

Not meant to sound condescending for real.

 

[Bob from Florida]

Do you honestly think Background noise and frequency response are the only things that Separate Vinyl from anything else??

There are a half dozen or more things that vinyl alters.
That is common knowledge.
I feel like if I have to explain all this, that maybe you are not fully into the audio or vinyl game to begin with.

Not meant to sound condescending for real.

I do know vinyl well. Never got rid of it like a lot of folks did.
Do you understand vinyl has sufficient dynamic range for available recordings? You made a statement about there being a half dozen or more things vinyl alters. Please detail them and explain why it matters in the context of reality. You may be able to hear the difference in dynamic range, but those recordings do not exist in CD’s or records.
By and large the majority of arguments about vinyl versus digital just don‘t matter in the real world. Both formats are limited by the choices made when compressing the recording.

 

[MattHooper]

Many people come here already brainwashed on all the things I listed, you know that.
In the main the only reason I repeat, is I get so many arguments over my posts.

You don't get arguments from ASR members against your continued point that vinyl isn't SOTA.

You seem to keep imagining them.

(And if you are referring to the OP, that was dunked a hundred pages ago, and the people still posting are not claiming vinyl is SOTA)

I'm not just posting out of thin air, they are all responses.
Accept the facts and move on.

"Accept the facts and move on" implies I have not accepted some facts about vinyl.

Another strawman.

Sal, if you care about truth that much, shouldn't you also care about the truth of what people here have actually stated and believe, rather than keep implying strawmen?

 

[krabapple]

One of the problems with focusing on measurements is context. CD's have a dynamic range of 96 db. Vinyl has max dynamic range between 60 and 70 db. Live orchestras have up to 90 db of dynamic range.

Somewhat more than that, depending on where you sit (or record)

See the work of Fielder. e.g

AES Journal Forum » Dynamic-Range Requirement for Subjectively Noise-Free Reproduction of Music

The AES Forum is where our members get to interact with each other in between conferences and section meetings.

secure.aes.org

 

[Sokel]

Have you ever seen one the bright minds of our time go out and fight about earth is not flat?
They have a little smile at most when the hear such things and go on making world a better place.

They don't fight,they don't need to.Why bother then?
Numbers are numbers,math is math,we go with what we have until we have something better.

Audio is done deal in terms of measurements,Psychoacoustics and neuroscience is the next level of what and where,if someone will ever bother to put it in the frame that a handful of people (yes,audiophiles are not many) will at last understand why we like A over B.

Until then let's respect the source,there's a lot of people doing work for every nice play.

 

[Sal1950]

Please detail them and explain why it matters in the context of reality.

I'll only bother with one for now.
Wow, flutter, & other speed irregularities make piano recordings all but unlistenable.

Matt, this is why.

 

[levimax]

I'll only bother with one for now.
Wow, flutter, & other speed irregularities make piano recordings all but unlistenable.

Matt, this is why.

While speed stability of digital is virtually flawless (assuming a digital recording and playback) a decent DD TT has wow and flutter lower than the tape machines used to create the master tape (when tape machines were used). Off center and warped records can of course be audible but for a centered flat record that was recorded from a decent source wow and flutter is not a real world issue.

 

[Robin L]

While speed stability of digital is virtually flawless (assuming a digital recording and playback) a decent DD TT has wow and flutter lower than the tape machines used to create the master tape (when tape machines were used). Off center and warped records can of course be audible but for a centered flat record that was recorded from a decent source wow and flutter is not a real world issue.

But---LPs with wow and flutter issues are a real world issue. Doesn't have to be an obvious wobble to be audible, and there isn't a record label I've encountered that did not have some issues with off-center or warped discs distorting the sound. While there is better and worse among analog discs as regards wow and flutter, it is a non-issue with DDD. Simple, clearcut, no argument. It's one of those things where digital recording has an obvious advantage to analog record/playback, specifically LP record/playback. One may tolerate wow & flutter better or worse than another person, but there's no escaping its presence with LP reproduction.

 

[levimax]

But---LPs with wow and flutter issues are a real world issue. Doesn't have to be an obvious wobble to be audible, and there isn't a record label I've encountered that did not have some issues with off-center or warped discs distorting the sound. While there is better and worse among analog discs as regards wow and flutter, it is a non-issue with DDD. Simple, clearcut, no argument. It's one of those things where digital recording has an obvious advantage to analog record/playback, specifically LP record/playback. One may tolerate wow & flutter better or worse than another person, but there's no escaping its presence with LP reproduction.

No argument to what you say but I was responding to "speed irregularities make piano recordings all but unlistenable" which is a gross over generalization.

 

[Sal1950]

No argument to what you say but I was responding to "speed irregularities make piano recordings all but unlistenable" which is a gross over generalization.

Possibly, it could also depend on your personal reaction to it.
For me it's just one of the reasons I have no interest in owning any vinyl gear.

 

[antcollinet]

No one feels threatened in the least.
Those being threatened are the ones buying into the marketing and all the BS that revolves around vinyl.
I very much find the idea of spending thousands if not ten's of thousands of dollars on vinyl gear right up there
with spending the same on power cords, USB cords, and all the rest of the useless toys the lamestream media
promotes as offering the path to nirvana in music reproduction.
Now are you going to answer with the same BS as the cable guys, "if it makes them happy it's all good"?
New members come here daily looking for the honest, unwavering truth on building a quality HiFi rig.
They deserve not to be brainwashed.
View attachment 223096

It really doesn't matter how many times you say "you idiots have bought into the marketing BS", it isn't going to make it true.

Almost no-one here is giving new members anything other than "honest unwavering truth". I really can't count how many times @MattHooper has told you that he (and most) know that sound quality is not up there with digital, but they enjoy it anyway. Yet you keep spouting your own BS, as though you believe the opposite. It really does make it look as though you - alone - are the one who - bizarrely - feels threatened.

 

[beagleman]

I do know vinyl well. Never got rid of it like a lot of folks did.
Do you understand vinyl has sufficient dynamic range for available recordings? You made a statement about there being a half dozen or more things vinyl alters. Please detail them and explain why it matters in the context of reality. You may be able to hear the difference in dynamic range, but those recordings do not exist in CD’s or records.
By and large the majority of arguments about vinyl versus digital just don‘t matter in the real world. Both formats are limited by the choices made when compressing the recording.

I never said they all mattered immensely, but that there are several imperfections.

Wow and flutter, very obvious.
The change in fidelity from outer grooves to inner grooves, that are turning at a totally different velocity relative to outer groovers, and are often done at lower levels and with highs rolled off to avoid distortion and mistracking.

Tracking errors in amplitude and due to angular issues with pick up and round record.

Scratches, surface noise and sound of vinyl simply sounds like a very low level bowling ball going down a wood lane. CLASSICAL brings out all these issues and more.

I agree in real life they do not ruin the experience, MANY Times, but often they do.

 

[JP]

Certainly not.




I don't find that very clear at all.

Do you mean my argument as to the nature of rationality itself was unsound? That there is some other account of rationality? If so...what is your alternative?

But if my account is sound, then the rationality of playing vinyl for some people, like myself, follows.

Thus far you seem to be simply indicating an objection, without actually explaining it.

I am interested in your viewpoint. It's up to you if you want to be understood by the other party, or remain cryptic. (And I don't really understand the desire for the latter, on a discussion board).

Your rationalization is just that; it's built on your beliefs, for your purposes. You find listening to record rational. I'd bet Sal doesn't. Who's rationale is right?

"...rational actions are held to be the coherent connection between our beliefs and desires, and the actions likely to fulfill those desires." So anything I do to fulfill a desire is a rational action? That's... optimistic.

 

[antcollinet]

Your rationalization is just that; it's built on your beliefs, for your purposes. You find listening to record rational. I'd bet Sal doesn't. Who's rationale is right?

"...rational actions are held to be the coherent connection between our beliefs and desires, and the actions likely to fulfill those desires." So anything I do to fulfill a desire is a rational action? That's... optimistic.

What beliefs do you think it is built on?