Which one is correct? 85 dB SPL or 83 dB SPL from Bob Katz Level Practices

[MengW]

你好，

我找到了 Bob Katz Level Practices 的两个版本。一个是 83 dB SPL，另一个是 85 dB SPL。
哪个是正确的？

谢谢。

Level Practices (Part 2) - Digido.com

Digital Domain - we ensure musicians, independent artists and record labels get the best sound possible. Bob Katz provides the best in mastering and mixing.

www.digido.com

https://www.aes.org/technical/documentDownloads.cfm?docID=65

Establishing Project Studio Reference Monitoring Levels

If you're serious about recording and mixing you need to set a consistent reference level to which you can always return. Our seven‑step guide explains how to do it.

www.soundonsound.com

休·罗布约翰斯

 

[voodooless]

The one you are comfortable with…

You don’t even know for sure what the studio used for the mix and master…

 

[Philbo King]

Are you referring to averaged listening level or monitoring calibration level? (such as 85 dB SPL = 0 dBFS)
The two are not the same thing.

 

[MengW]

你好，

我找到了 Bob Katz Level Practices 的两个版本。一个是 83 dB SPL，另一个是 85 dB SPL。
哪个是正确的？

谢谢。

Level Practices (Part 2) - Digido.com

Digital Domain - we ensure musicians, independent artists and record labels get the best sound possible. Bob Katz provides the best in mastering and mixing.

www.digido.com

View attachment 277305

https://www.aes.org/technical/documentDownloads.cfm?docID=65

View attachment 277306

Establishing Project Studio Reference Monitoring Levels

If you're serious about recording and mixing you need to set a consistent reference level to which you can always return. Our seven‑step guide explains how to do it.

www.soundonsound.com

休·罗布约翰斯

View attachment 277297

I found out the Appendix 2 in the web page.
So I think that the 83 dB SPL should be the updated version.

 

[Blumlein 88]

It was 80 db for one speaker or 83 db for two speakers. Or so I thought.

 

[MengW]

It was 80 db for one speaker or 83 db for two speakers. Or so I thought.

I did check the level calibration pink noise signals of EBU, ITU, ATSC, which is +3dB when two speakers played.
But, regarding the speaker level calibration, all the standards and materials I have seen, are only for one speaker.

 

[Blumlein 88]

From that same level article. So I remembered wrong it was 83 db for one speaker.

In 1996, we measured that monitor gain, and found it to be 6 dB less than the film-standard for most of the pop music we were mastering. To calibrate a monitor to the film-standard, play a standardized pink noise calibration signal whose amplitude is -20 dB FS RMS, on one channel (loudspeaker) at a time. Adjust the monitor gain to yield 83 dB SPL using a meter with C-weighted, slow response. Call this gain 0 dB, the reference, and you will find the pop-music “standard” monitor gain at 6 dB below this reference.

Here from even later in the article the K-system he came up with. Might be a bit confusing. He is referring to reference levels for various purposes. Wideband top quality orchestral recordings would have 20 db of headroom. Smaller home spaces might be fine with 14 db of headroom and the expectation some compression will be used making the overall average level similar. For broadcast, spoken words and highly compressed pop music only 12 db of headroom.

You might be confused with those illustrations and what they mean. If you were mastering you set your system so - 20 db gets you 83 db with pink noise on one speaker. If you were mastering pop music with some compression, the method is to turn down the volume 6 db. This will cause you to raise the average recording volume level until it sounds the right loudness. Raising the digital level leaves you with less headroom, but with compressed music that is what you have anyway. This was/is pretty ingenious. You'll naturally set levels to a comfortable loudness and won't be tempted to over-compress to raise average volume level. I've used this and with a little experience it works great. For much/most music people won't prefer uncompressed to reasonable compression levels.

Now the way much garbage mastering is done, you'd need to turn down the playback volume level by 16 db and compress it until you get comfortably loud 83 db levels leaving only 4 db of headroom. Using this method prevents you from doing something this stupid.

 

[GXAlan]

http://www.associationdesmixeurs.fr/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/NIVEAU-DE-MIXAGE-CINEMA.pdf

This is a great survey with a lot of information.

 

[abdo123]

The one you are comfortable with…

You don’t even know for sure what the studio used for the mix and master…

It literally said it’s more or less standardised for film.

Also the Dolby Atmos encoder has very stringent guidelines on what may be encoded and what may be not, which also have a minimum LUFS value (i think -19 LUFS). So yeah there is no playing around with that i’m afraid.

Every streaming service has their own limitations on top of that.

 

[GXAlan]

It literally said it’s more or less standardised for film.

Also the Dolby Atmos encoder has very stringent guidelines on what may be encoded and what may be not, which also have a minimum LUFS value (i think -19 LUFS). So yeah there is no playing around with that i’m afraid.

Every streaming service has their own limitations on top of that.

Netflix Sound Mix Specifications & Best Practices v1.5

Skip to Translations Table of Contents 1 Nearfield Audio Prerequisites for Mix Facilities 2.1 Near Field Atmos® Mix - Mastering and Archive - Original Language Version 2.2 Near Field 5.1 Surround M...

partnerhelp.netflixstudios.com

 

[MengW]

你好，

我找到了 Bob Katz Level Practices 的两个版本。一个是 83 dB SPL，另一个是 85 dB SPL。
哪个是正确的？

谢谢。

Level Practices (Part 2) - Digido.com

Digital Domain - we ensure musicians, independent artists and record labels get the best sound possible. Bob Katz provides the best in mastering and mixing.

www.digido.com

View attachment 277305

https://www.aes.org/technical/documentDownloads.cfm?docID=65

View attachment 277306

Establishing Project Studio Reference Monitoring Levels

If you're serious about recording and mixing you need to set a consistent reference level to which you can always return. Our seven‑step guide explains how to do it.

www.soundonsound.com

休·罗布约翰斯

View attachment 277297

I tried to collect some standards and recommendations, and found out these two representative speaker calibration levels.

0dBFS (LUFS) = 96 ~ 97dB SPL
EBU R128
ATSC A/85, Room Volume in Cubic Feet < 1,499
ITU 1116
Bob Katz Mastering level
Dolby AC3/DTS Home Theater
Hugh Robjohns, Page 3: Establishing Project Studio Reference Monitoring Levels, 42～142m³
ØYVIND KVÅLSVOLL, How loud is our music
K-14 meter for home hi-fi music, home theater, and pop music mixing.


0dBFS (LUFS) = 102 ~ 103dB SPL
Dolby mastering mixing production review (large room)
Large theater SMPTE
Star Wars films level story
Dolby Music minimum room dimensions
Bob Katz, CD Honor Roll list
Bob Katz, Classical music mix
K-20 meter is intended for wide dynamic range material, e.g., large theatre mixes, “daring home theatre”mixes, audiophile music, classical (symphonic) music, “audiophile”pop music mixed in 5.1 surround, and so on.

 

[voodooless]

It literally said it’s more or less standardised for film.

Yes, more or less...

Also the Dolby Atmos encoder has very stringent guidelines on what may be encoded and what may be not, which also have a minimum LUFS value (i think -19 LUFS). So yeah there is no playing around with that i’m afraid.

Every streaming service has their own limitations on top of that.

See the link from @GXAlan. There seem to be some differences here in mixing levels for at least Netflix. The Atmos nearfield mixes (which are for home use) use a monitoring level between 79 dB and 82 dB, so not 85 dB. And even so, it still doesn't tell you how loud the people that actually did the mixing had it set up. If afterward this gets altered to adhere to whatever spec is given, it still means it deviates from the source mix. Equal loudness will ensure it doesn't sound the same unless compensated for.

This also means you don't really know what mix you get from Netflix. Is it the Atmos nearfield mix or the theatrical mix? This may also explain the vast differences in soundtracks in terms of loudness and dynamics.

 

[abdo123]

And even so, it still doesn't tell you how loud the people that actually did the mixing had it set up.

I think the industry is too competitive for these people to keep their jobs, unless we're talking about small fish national broadcasters.

 

[voodooless]

I think the industry is too competitive for these people to keep their jobs, unless we're talking about small fish national broadcasters.

The point is, that even if they used the spec for the mix, you don't know what spec you get served.

 

[ZolaIII]

Those are standard calibration points in mono for stareo systems. Calibration is to 83 or 85 dB (mono) white noise - 20 dB signal to listening position. Translating to about 86, 88 dB stereo (or a tad less) meaning you will have peek in bass in real materials about 103~105 dB.
I calibrate mono to 83 dB on listening position and add sub's to - 3~4 dB to that before enabling equal loudness normalisation as hell on earth I ain't gonna listen at full volume with everything shaking in the room (windows the most) pretty much never.
Edit: EBU R128 pretty much take care of recorded-mixed part on material side and as it's to much (volume reduction) in my case to keep the amplifier buzz low trough unbalanced connection (in case of my amplifier at least) I use peek normalisation afterwards.

 

[MengW]

Those are standard calibration points in mono for stareo systems. Calibration is to 83 or 85 dB (mono) white noise - 20 dB signal to listening position. Translating to about 86, 88 dB stereo (or a tad less) meaning you will have peek in bass in real materials about 103~105 dB.
I calibrate mono to 83 dB on listening position and add sub's to - 3~4 dB to that before enabling equal loudness normalisation as hell on earth I ain't gonna listen at full volume with everything shaking in the room (windows the most) pretty much never.
Edit: EBU R128 pretty much take care of recorded-mixed part on material side and as it's to much (volume reduction) in my case to keep the amplifier buzz low trough unbalanced connection (in case of my amplifier at least) I use peek normalisation afterwards.

Bob said,
This 88-90 dB+ region is used in films for explosions and special effects. In music recording, naturally-recorded (uncompressed) large symphonic ensembles and big bands reach +3 to +4 dB on the average scale on the loudest (fortissimo) passages. Rock and electric pop music take advantage of this “loud zone”, since climaxes, loud choruses and occasional peak moments sound incorrect if they only reach 0dB (forte) on any K-system meter. Composers have equated fortissimo to 88-90+ dB since the time of Beethoven. Use this range occasionally, otherwise it is musically incorrect (and ear-damaging).

Level Practices (Part 2) - Digido.com

Digital Domain - we ensure musicians, independent artists and record labels get the best sound possible. Bob Katz provides the best in mastering and mixing.

www.digido.com

https://www.aes.org/technical/documentDownloads.cfm?docID=65

My current room is small, and I think that this Bob's note is suitable for my room size, system and listening habits.

 

[ZolaIII]

Bob said,
This 88-90 dB+ region is used in films for explosions and special effects. In music recording, naturally-recorded (uncompressed) large symphonic ensembles and big bands reach +3 to +4 dB on the average scale on the loudest (fortissimo) passages. Rock and electric pop music take advantage of this “loud zone”, since climaxes, loud choruses and occasional peak moments sound incorrect if they only reach 0dB (forte) on any K-system meter. Composers have equated fortissimo to 88-90+ dB since the time of Beethoven. Use this range occasionally, otherwise it is musically incorrect (and ear-damaging).

Level Practices (Part 2) - Digido.com

Digital Domain - we ensure musicians, independent artists and record labels get the best sound possible. Bob Katz provides the best in mastering and mixing.

www.digido.com

https://www.aes.org/technical/documentDownloads.cfm?docID=65

My current room is small, and I think that this Bob's note is suitable for my room size, system and listening habits.

I use equal loudness (ISO 226 2003) and this is how it translates to uper 85 dB white noise (-20 dB point) i use 83 dB one:

My usual listening loudness level is little higher (2~3 dB) but it comes pretty much to same thing as that's not mine and at +2 dB calibration point.
For me that's fine and it's a mid feald (2.3~2.5 m) listening position.

 

[MengW]

Those are standard calibration points in mono for stareo systems. Calibration is to 83 or 85 dB (mono) white noise - 20 dB signal to listening position. Translating to about 86, 88 dB stereo (or a tad less) meaning you will have peek in bass in real materials about 103~105 dB.
I calibrate mono to 83 dB on listening position and add sub's to - 3~4 dB to that before enabling equal loudness normalisation as hell on earth I ain't gonna listen at full volume with everything shaking in the room (windows the most) pretty much never.
Edit: EBU R128 pretty much take care of recorded-mixed part on material side and as it's to much (volume reduction) in my case to keep the amplifier buzz low trough unbalanced connection (in case of my amplifier at least) I use peek normalisation afterwards.

Many years ago, I tried to use the peak volume value to set the playback volume, but failed.

https://toneprints.com/media/1017421/lundt013011.pdf

-
-
Now, I calibrate my speaker with EBU R128 standard -23LUFS=73dB SPL.

Analyze the Integrated Loudness of music with the Youlean software.

If the Integrated Loudness is -16 LUFS, I set the speaker level is 66 dB SPL, DONE!

From the beginning to the end, from Piano Pianissmo/ppp to Forte Portissimo/fff, from classical to pop, no need to adjust the volume anymore, very comfortable for me.

Btw, 73 dB SPL - (-16LUFS-(-23LUFS))=73-23+16=50+16=66 dB SPL

 

[dasdoing]

you will never know how loud music was mixed/mastered. it really is just a standard for Dolby/film. Katz porpoused one for music, but in reality we don't know how many are using it. and in most popular genres this number probably tends to 0%.

Also as a consumer, with streaming standards it would make more sense to calibrate to -14 LUFS pink noise

 

[ZolaIII]

you will never know how loud music was mixed/mastered. it really is just a standard for Dolby/film. Katz porpoused one for music, but in reality we don't know how many are using it. and in most popular genres this number probably tends to 0%.

Also as a consumer, with streaming standards it would make more sense to calibrate to -14 LUFS pink noise

It's not a standard, streaming services are lately tending to adopt to - 18 LUFS so called ripple gain 2.0 which is again wrong. EBU R128 has a largest limit - 23 LUFS and there for highest headroom for bad materials from golden days of loudness war's. It's to much of a SPL reduction but as stated before it can be easily gained back with peak normalisation. In the end who cares about master levels used when mixing if EBU R128 can normalise them correctly and you can adjust them to yours desired listening levels with ISO 226 2003?
Neither is ISO 226 2003 magical nor it translates universally to all speakers but it makes a big difference especially when you want to listen at moderate to low levels. On the other hand even EBU R128 - 23 LUFS limit isn't enough for really really horrible exaggerated mixes (made to sort of sound better on something like mobile phone speaker).
Example of such:

So advice is skip such entirely.
Seriously instead adopting EBU R128 and ending loudness war's we instead have half way in between and half cut non standard solution's.