Which dac/preamp brands are reliable ?

[Marc v E]

As I'm in the process of searching for a good dac and preamp (possibly only a dac used as preamp) I was wondering how reliable the top options really are?

I'm a big fan of a well engineered product, both in measurements and in usability and reliability. I guess pretty much everybody is...
But what is the sweet spot for price vs reliability?

Could you name the product and the number of years you owned it trouble free? It would be great if you could add your user experience, the usability of the product in a few words too.

I'll begin the thread by sharing my experience:
* NAD C510 (same as NAD M51 afaik): owned and used daily for 5 years, no repairs to report. Usability ok, not great. Some glitches with hdmi lock; the buttons selecting source are not responsive. Good remote though. And the volume dial on the unit has a great feeling/response to it.
* Topping Dx7pro 1 year old, used daily. Usability is great imo for desktop use. Have not tried the remote.

 

[Willem]

RME ADI-2 DAC, used as DAC/preamp. I have had it for about three years, and it has been impeccable. No glitches, nothing has gone wrong. Functionality is excellent, with balance, tone, and dynamic loudness controls, and filters. It just does what it should do, and far more than other DACs/preamps. I don't think there is anything better at any price, and that price is actually not that much for such a piece of professional quality with stellar support. Many audiophile DACs are more expensive, for less.

 

[Marc v E]

RME ADI-2 DAC, used as DAC/preamp. I have had it for about three years, and it has been impeccable. No glitches, nothing has gone wrong. Functionality is excellent, with balance, tone, and dynamic loudness controls, and filters. It just does what it should do, and far more than other DACs/preamps. I don't think there is anything better at any price, and that price is actually not that much for such a piece of professional quality with stellar support. Many audiophile DACs are more expensive, for less.

Thank you for sharing! Reading the ASR forums, I get the impression the RME dac is to Europeans what the Benchmark dac is to US citizens. What sets the RME apart (to Europeans at least) is that it's half the price of a Benchmark dac.

If I understand it correctly, the adi dac changes output voltage too to get the best match with the receiving amplifier. But I'm not clear yet what benefit this brings? Could you explain that?
Do you get more gain, less distortion, less noise...?

 

[LTig]

If I understand it correctly, the adi dac changes output voltage too to get the best match with the receiving amplifier. But I'm not clear yet what benefit this brings? Could you explain that?
Do you get more gain, less distortion, less noise...?

It gives you more resolution and less noise when you go down with volume (volume control is digital).

 

[Marc v E]

It gives you more resolution and less noise when you go down with volume (volume control is digital).

Ah now I understand! It should give the highest resolution if the max voltage output of the dac is matched to the max voltage input of the receiving amplifier. Otherwise the noise floor is relatively higher because it needs to be amplified more (and apparently dacs have a higher resolution/lower noise floor than amplifiers).

I guess then that the benefit of it also depends on the specs of the receiving amplifier? If that is the case, is my amp with 6.5v Rms and 9.2 v peak input particularly well suited to this dac feature? And more prone to amplify noise with regular 2v rca dac output because of its quite unusual specs? See here: https://www.tonmeister.ca/wordpress/2020/06/03/beolab-3rd-party-source-with-a-high-level-output/

 

[LTig]

Ah now I understand! It should give the highest resolution if the max voltage output of the dac is matched to the max voltage input of the receiving amplifier. Otherwise the noise floor is relatively higher because it needs to be amplified more (and apparently dacs have a higher resolution/lower noise floor than amplifiers).

This is correct.

I guess then that the benefit of it also depends on the specs of the receiving amplifier? If that is the case, is my amp with 6.5v Rms and 9.2 v peak input particularly well suited to this dac feature? And more prone to amplify noise with regular 2v rca dac output because of its quite unusual specs? See here: https://www.tonmeister.ca/wordpress/2020/06/03/beolab-3rd-party-source-with-a-high-level-output/

Well, the ADI2 DAC can output +19 dBu = 6.9 Vrms at its balanced output and +13 dBu = 3.45 Vrms at its unbalanced output. If this is not enough the ADI2 PRO fs outputs +24 dBu = 12.3 Vrms at its balanced outputs - at a price though (and you pay for an extra ADC).

Are you sure that your amp really requires 6.5 Vrms for full output? That is a lot. Is this balanced? If yes the RME can feed it but for a DAC with digital volume control I would prefer some head room so you can get full power for recordings which have low volume. The ADI2 PRO fs has +6 dB headroom (volume control goes up to + 6 dB) so presumably the ADI2 DAC does as well.

 

[MAB]

Thank you for sharing! Reading the ASR forums, I get the impression the RME dac is to Europeans what the Benchmark dac is to US citizens. What sets the RME apart (to Europeans at least) is that it's half the price of a Benchmark dac.

The RME product line is well supported in the US as well, typically through stores that specialize in Professional Audio. I would say the ADI-2 FS is a bargain in the US, about $1000 USD. Especially when you consider the DSP functionality, and the documentation is fantastic. The microphone preamps I have from RME are great too, I have never had a problem but if I do I am pretty sure the support here will be great.

I have not had good experiences with Topping. 2 out of three units have gone bad, one is an A30 Pro headphone amp with an intermittent channel. The other is a PA5 amp with a problem common to many users:

Poll for Topping PA5 owners only please.

Poll for PA5 owners to report product defects. Discussion for any solutions. I think it would be useful to get a handle on some numbers to estimate just how wide spread the issues are. Addendum: Here is Topping's response to the PA5 issues...

www.audiosciencereview.com

The D30 Pro is the only piece I have from Topping still working at the end of a year.
As bad as the reliability appears to be, the customer service is way worse. I won't bore you with it here, read the thread if you want the melodrama!
I liked the functionality of the three Topping pieces I bought. But the reliability is bad and the customer service is just abysmal.

The RME ADI-2 FS is a genuine bargain here.

 

[cybernaut667]

YAMAHA MUSICCAST WXC-50

333 euros

YAMAHA MUSICCAST WXC-50 Audio Streamer ES9006 WiFi AirPlay DLNA Bluetooth 24bit 192kHz DSD128 - Audiophonics

Yamaha unveils with its WXC-50 an extremely complete network player, based on the brand's MusicCast system. The WXC-50 is a comprehensive network player based on Yamaha's MusicCast system, with extensive connectivity to a wide range of content.

www.audiophonics.fr

 

[Marc v E]

This is correct.

Well, the ADI2 DAC can output +19 dBu = 6.9 Vrms at its balanced output and +13 dBu = 3.45 Vrms at its unbalanced output. If this is not enough the ADI2 PRO fs outputs +24 dBu = 12.3 Vrms at its balanced outputs - at a price though (and you pay for an extra ADC).

Are you sure that your amp really requires 6.5 Vrms for full output? That is a lot. Is this balanced? If yes the RME can feed it but for a DAC with digital volume control I would prefer some head room so you can get full power for recordings which have low volume. The ADI2 PRO fs has +6 dB headroom (volume control goes up to + 6 dB) so presumably the ADI2 DAC does as well.

Well, the link I posted is from the Tonmeister at B&O, so I'm confident he's got his numbers right. The beolab 9 has two inputs, one Power Link and the other rca. EDIT: I should add though I'm more confident in understanding the specs. Could you help me with this? If I understand it correctly the Beolab 9 rca input is pretty much specced to the Rme balanced output. From my limited understanding though I gather it's not worth it to use a cable that runs from balanced to rca because you wouldn't get the cleanest signal out of it. What do you think based on the specs provided would be the best match?

From the blog:
"Most customers connect their Beolab loudspeakers to a Bang & Olufsen source using something called a “Power Link” connection. This is a little bundle of wires that contains two audio channels (probably left and right) as well as a data channel (telling the loudspeaker things like the volume setting, for example) and a 5 V DC on/off signal.

Power Link is specified to have a maximum level of 6.5 V RMS, assuming that the signal is a sine wave. This means that a device with a Power Link output can produce no more than 9.2 V Peak. It also means that a device with a Power Link input (like a Beolab loudspeaker) will clip (and therefore distort) at its input if you feed it with more than 9.2 V Peak."

The Beolab 9 specs seem to confirm this by stating the same 125mV 91db at 1 meter spec that B&O's tonmeister used in his blog.

 

[MAB]

Answers to OP's question:

• MiniDSP SHD: 2 years with no reliability problems except the display has slight degradation. Functionality and performance is great, I use this as Preamp/DAC/crossover/DSP-correction for a pair of studio monitors with subwoofers.
• A30 Pro: One channel went intermittent after 8 months, warranty service pending and not going smoothly. Functionality was good before the device broke.
• D30 Pro: Still working well after 8 months.
• RME ADI-2 FS: Just got to replace the broken A30 Pro. Sound is great, and compared to the A30/D30 Pro stack is a bargain. Based on other RME studio gear I have, I expect reliability to be great but I have only had this for 4 days now. Initial good impressions are consistent with previous RME purchases.

 

[Marc v E]

Answers to OP's question:

• MiniDSP SHD: 2 years with no reliability problems except the display has slight degradation. Functionality and performance is great, I use this as Preamp/DAC/crossover/DSP-correction for a pair of studio monitors with subwoofers.
• A30 Pro: One channel went intermittent after 8 months, warranty service pending and not going smoothly. Functionality was good before the device broke.
• D30 Pro: Still working well after 8 months.
• RME ADI-2 FS: Just got to replace the broken A30 Pro. Sound is great, and compared to the A30/D30 Pro stack is a bargain. Based on other RME studio gear I have, I expect reliability to be great but I have only had this for 4 days now. Initial good impressions are consistent with previous RME purchases.

If you would compare the minidsp shd with the Rme adi-2 FS, which one would you rate highest on sound quality and usability?

It's particularly interesting to me as I have both on my shortlist, but no way of comparing the two. I would expect based on specs that they pretty much sound the same because they are transparant but the EQ capabilities of the minidsp might make a difference. I must add though I will use eq to compansate for the room the speakers are in but am not planning to use subwoofers.
Looking forward to your thoughts on this.

 

[LTig]

Well, the link I posted is from the Tonmeister at B&O, so I'm confident he's got his numbers right. The beolab 9 has two inputs, one Power Link and the other rca. EDIT: I should add though I'm more confident in understanding the specs. Could you help me with this? If I understand it correctly the Beolab 9 rca input is pretty much specced to the Rme balanced output. From my limited understanding though I gather it's not worth it to use a cable that runs from balanced to rca because you wouldn't get the cleanest signal out of it. What do you think based on the specs provided would be the best match?

With 0.125 Vrms for 91 dB SPL you'd need 3.5 Vrms (29 dB more) to reach 120 dB SPL - if the speaker is able to reproduce such high SPL in the first place (which I doubt). We don't know this because neither maximum input level or maximum output SPL is stated. The only spec I could found is in this German review which states 98 dB max SPL (as I understand it) which doesn't seem plausible either. However ...

From the blog:
"Most customers connect their Beolab loudspeakers to a Bang & Olufsen source using something called a “Power Link” connection. This is a little bundle of wires that contains two audio channels (probably left and right) as well as a data channel (telling the loudspeaker things like the volume setting, for example) and a 5 V DC on/off signal.

Power Link is specified to have a maximum level of 6.5 V RMS, assuming that the signal is a sine wave. This means that a device with a Power Link output can produce no more than 9.2 V Peak. It also means that a device with a Power Link input (like a Beolab loudspeaker) will clip (and therefore distort) at its input if you feed it with more than 9.2 V Peak."

... this hints that a B&O source with Power Link output is able to output 6.5 Vrms. The phones output of the ADI2 DAC can output +22 dBu = 9.75Vrms so more than enough.

Anyway, without complete data it's impossible to find a match.

 

[MAB]

If you would compare the minidsp shd with the Rme adi-2 FS, which one would you rate highest on sound quality and usability?

It's particularly interesting to me as I have both on my shortlist, but no way of comparing the two. I would expect based on specs that they pretty much sound the same because they are transparant but the EQ capabilities of the minidsp might make a difference. I must add though I will use eq to compansate for the room the speakers are in but am not planning to use subwoofers.
Looking forward to your thoughts on this.

Great question. Both sound the same to me used as a straight-up DAC even if the ADI-2 has better measured specs. I didn't spend too much time comparing the two, suffice to say both sound great, and so does the D30 Pro! Both are easy to use but I much prefer the interface on the ADI-2. The features are much different. There is a very good review here of the MiniDSP SHD, with specifics on strengths and weaknesses.

Minidsp SHD Review Updated (DSP, DAC & Streamer)

This is an update to the review of minidsp SHD that I did a couple of years ago. My tests have evolved since then and company has stated that they fixed a few issues I found in that test. The SHD costs US $1,195 and includes a USB DAC, streaming engine (based on Volumio) and of course, DSP...

www.audiosciencereview.com

The MiniDSP SHD has Dirac if you want to use that correction tool. I forgot to mention, it has A/D also and I use that for phono input. And I use the crossover and parametric equalization features too.
My biggest gripe is the MiniDSP display which has deteriorated a little bit in the 2 years I have had it. It is in a mostly dark room... The degradation is minor though, and that is my biggest gripe, so not much to gripe about!

If the yet-to-be released ADI-2/4 has the features that include dsp crossover, then I would consider replacing the MiniDSP.
Right now, the ADI-2 FS is replacing the Topping A30/D/30 Pro combo. Even if the Topping devices had shown good reliability, the ADI-2 FS would have a been better choice, and I would have enjoyed the interface and features.

 

[Marc v E]

With 0.125 Vrms for 91 dB SPL you'd need 3.5 Vrms (29 dB more) to reach 120 dB SPL - if the speaker is able to reproduce such high SPL in the first place (which I doubt). We don't know this because neither maximum input level or maximum output SPL is stated. The only spec I could found is in this German review which states 98 dB max SPL (as I understand it) which doesn't seem plausible either. However ...

... this hints that a B&O source with Power Link output is able to output 6.5 Vrms. The phones output of the ADI2 DAC can output +22 dBu = 9.75Vrms so more than enough.

Anyway, without complete data it's impossible to find a match.

It looks like the specs somehow don't add up. But I do have the device at hand and a B&O source and a NAD source. Do I understand correctly that if the speaker output at 125mV is 91db at 1 m that a max output of 2 to 3 V is plenty and preferable since a max higher voltage output would only require me to turn the volume way down? And that a max 6.2Vrms is only useful if the output of say 91 db at 1m from the speakers requires a way higher input than 125mV? That way I wouldn't have to turn the volume all the way down on the dac and could make use of max resolution and lowest noise. Is this reasoning solid?
My hunch is that at 6.2Vrms the protection circuit will be triggered, but that the max useful input is way lower as it's supposed to output 91db at 125mV.


Either way, I guess I just have to measure the output voltage of my current NAD dac (rca) when the speakers output 91 db at 1m. And the output voltage of the B&O source (Power link) at max volume to double check. Will do so in a week time when I'm back from hollidays. Is this test specific enough to make sure what the specs are?

 

[Chrispy]

OTOH what brands of dac/preamp have proven unreliable?

 

[Marc v E]

OTOH what brands of dac/preamp have proven unreliable?

Good point. But I read some accounts concerning Topping on ASR. Although it's only 2 with a malfunctioning dac. Most reports are on the input of the d90se being very unforgiving of bad sources, ie lg and sony tvs. Which is probably a more realistic concern if you have or plan to have one of either tvs.

Now that I come to think of it the reports on the d90se and topping amps was probably the direct reason I felt compelled to ask this question.

 

[Chrispy]

Bad sources/content is always the first issue in the chain. Putting lipstick on a pig isn't helpful. I have heard for years how much of my long used gear wouldn't last yet it did....if it makes it beyond the initial period and isn't abused in my general experience, longevity isn't that hard with much of consumer electronics. Sure, some will fail, and I think the most prone will fail earlier than later. Some speakers with fragile foam surrounds perhaps might be a time concern, tho. Then if you're buying a limited dac box and/or pre-amp just for headphones that's another subject imo (could care less about headphones, IMO that's more something to be used only when you can't use speakers ).

 

[Willem]

Any question you may have about RME products can be asked at their forum: https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewforum.php?id=21

 

[LTig]

It looks like the specs somehow don't add up. But I do have the device at hand and a B&O source and a NAD source. Do I understand correctly that if the speaker output at 125mV is 91db at 1 m that a max output of 2 to 3 V is plenty and preferable since a max higher voltage output would only require me to turn the volume way down?

Yes.

And that a max 6.2Vrms is only useful if the output of say 91 db at 1m from the speakers requires a way higher input than 125mV? That way I wouldn't have to turn the volume all the way down on the dac and could make use of max resolution and lowest noise. Is this reasoning solid?

This is mostly true for simple digital volume controls. And as I wrote you need some headroom for recordings with low volume.

Either way, I guess I just have to measure the output voltage of my current NAD dac (rca) when the speakers output 91 db at 1m. And the output voltage of the B&O source (Power link) at max volume to double check. Will do so in a week time when I'm back from hollidays. Is this test specific enough to make sure what the specs are?

I would just play two recordings, a loud one (loudness war) and a quiet one. If both are loud enough in your room and there is no noise audible then you're good.

 

[majingotan]

Schiit Saga OG preamp running for almost 6 years now. Schiit Bifrost 1 was replaced with Schiit Bifrost 2 (launch day) in 2019. ZERO issues whatsoever with my experience with Schiit products (at least those with internal power transformers inside and not the wall-wart versions)