Which bookshelf crossover (non-DSP) provides highest performance under $2,500? Acoustic Energy AE1?

[mononoaware]

My AV receiver would probably become my Genelec hub.

I think the 7360A (SAM) was built to act as central point of GLM surround system.
You can AES in (5.1 digital signal) from source, then use 7360A Analog outputs 3-7 to connect to each (5x) monitor via XLR.
(Not sure what Analog “Test 1” and “Test 2” connections mean)

 

[mel]

What about lossless 5.1 digital download? (Purchase instead of stream)

I should also explain I misunderstood the function of GLM Hub.
I thought the Ethernet cable connections had two functions:
1. to calibrate/program
2. send AES digital signal to every monitor.
But GLM Hub is only for calibrating/programming.

I think this is a missed opportunity which would have dramatically streamlined the experience for customers, since the compatible monitors already accept digital signal. . .

Great idea that this newly hired person would love to hear: https://www.genelec.com/en/-/news/g...perience-with-appointment-of-marcel-schechter

 

[mel]

I think the 7360A (SAM) was built to act as central point of GLM surround system.
You can AES in (5.1 digital signal) from source, then use 7360A Analog outputs 3-7 to connect to each (5x) monitor via XLR.
(Not sure what Analog “Test 1” and “Test 2” connections mean)

That's a great point I had not even noticed it.

https://www.genelec.com/7360a


Equipped for both

• stereo and
• multi-channel audio, the 7360A intelligently
• adapts to your space to deliver absolute accuracy at low frequencies.
• Connections
  8 x XLR Analog Input
  
  8 x XLR Analog Output
  
  1 x XLR AES/EBU Input
  
  1 x XLR AES/EBU Output
  
  2 x RJ45 Control
  
  1 x XLR Analog Input
  
  1 x XLR Analog Output

They draw attention to LFE channel.

https://www.genelec.com/7360a#section-technical-specifications

Two CAT5 (RJ45) GLM Network connectors for computer control using the Genelec Loudspeaker Manager (GLM) software.

 

[mel]

I think the 7360A (SAM) was built to act as central point of GLM surround system.
You can AES in (5.1 digital signal) from source, then use 7360A Analog outputs 3-7 to connect to each (5x) monitor via XLR.
(Not sure what Analog “Test 1” and “Test 2” connections mean)

7350a does not draw attention to LFE performance.

https://www.genelec.com/7350a

Designed to complement our 8320A and 8330A smart monitors, the 7350A delivers clean, precise bass reproduction that provides low frequency extension and increases the headroom of your entire monitoring system through flexible bass management. This results in well-articulated LF performance with very low distortion, while your main monitors are free to concentrate their energy on the rest of the frequency spectrum.

The 7350A also works closely with our GLM software, via which it can be configured for

• stereo or
• multichannel formats. Once configured, GLM will then
• analyse your room acoustics and intelligently adjust frequency, level, delay and crossover phase - so monitors and subwoofer integrate perfectly. This process produces a totally optimised listening experience, delivering mixes that translate beautifully.
• 6 x XLR Analog Input
  
  5 x XLR Analog Output
  
  1 x XLR AES/EBU Input
  
  1 x XLR AES/EBU Output
  
  2 x RJ45 Control

 

[mel]

I think the 7360A (SAM) was built to act as central point of GLM surround system.
You can AES in (5.1 digital signal) from source, then use 7360A Analog outputs 3-7 to connect to each (5x) monitor via XLR.
(Not sure what Analog “Test 1” and “Test 2” connections mean)

Here's an actual screen shot from the thunder from The Doors, Rider on the Storm in normal and Dolby Atmos. The sound and measurement is drastically different. LFE orientation might be a significant difference.

I really like the 19Hz level specification, too.

The Dolby Atmos:

 

[mel]

This is an actual Napoleon cannon for Tchaikovsky 1812. This link is from Yale University and West Point military recordings.

The bells part is an excellent example of how recording speed changes sound.

Actual cannons and reverberations recorded before adding to music.

 

[mel]

​

I started writing my own personal analysis in a laptop document. I wanted to paste this information and encountered a software bug. I have to start a new post.

https://assets.ctfassets.net/4zjnzn...478c083c419/GLM_4_System_Operating_Manual.pdf

​

 

[mel]

4.2.8 Digital Audio 5.1 (HDMI equivalent) with a 7300 Series Subwoofer with 9301​

• 7300 series subwoofers have one (stereo) input for AES/EBU (HDMI equivalent) digital audio, and
• 9301 Multichannel AES/EBU Interface is needed to expand the connectivity for AES/EBU to the subwoofer.

The Glossary vastly simplifies understanding Genelec product structure.

• Notice the difference between 72xx and 73xx is "digital".
• Notice the difference between 82xx and 83xx is "extended room compensation capabilities"
• Notice SE7161 description: "... subwoofer that acts as a centralized processing unit ..."

https://assets.ctfassets.net/4zjnzn...478c083c419/GLM_4_System_Operating_Manual.pdf

3.2 SAM Subwoofers
Smart active subwoofers are supported on Genelec’s GLM management network. Genelec has a wide selection of subwoofers supporting multichannel analog inputs and multichannel digital audio inputs, for all monitoring applications.

use the Genelec Cloud based AutoCal (preferable method) or, after you have received GLM Kit and after installing the GLM software, download and install the Local AutoCal Package software

4.2 Cabling for Audio Signals
Run all audio cables from the audio source to the monitors.

• When a subwoofer is used, run the same signal to the monitor and the subwoofer.
• We recommend running the signal to the subwoofer first.
• The subwoofer has output connectors to facilitate onward connection to the monitors.

Bass management means using a subwoofer to reproduce low frequencies for any or all of the audio channels. Audio channels for monitors that are not bass managed can be run directly to the monitors. They do not need to run to the subwoofer.
When you need both analog and digital audio cabling, it is possible to populate both analog and digital inputs and outputs on SAM monitors and subwoofers. GLM allows the Group configuration to select either the analog or digital audio. Note that the 8320 monitor features an analog input only.

4.2.8 Digital Audio 5.1 with a 7300 Series Subwoofer with 9301
Before cabling, turn off the power in all monitors and subwoofers.

• 7300 series subwoofers have one (stereo) input for AES/EBU digital audio, and
• 9301 Multichannel AES/EBU Interface is needed to expand the connectivity for AES/EBU to the subwoofer.
• An example of the audio cabling for AES/EBU digital audio is shown in Figure 8.
• An example of an AES/EBU digital audio surround cabling with 7300 series subwoofer and 9301.

Connect the following XLR digital audio cables:

 

[mel]

This vastly simplifies understanding Genelec product structure.

• Notice the difference between 72xx and 73xx is "digital".
• Notice the difference between 82xx and 83xx is "extended room compensation capabilities"
• Notice SE7161 description: "... subwoofer that acts as a centralized processing unit ..."

4.2.8 Digital Audio 5.1 with a 7300 Series Subwoofer with 9301
Before cabling, turn off the power in all monitors and subwoofers.

• 7300 series subwoofers have one (stereo) input for AES/EBU digital audio, and
• 9301 Multichannel AES/EBU Interface is needed to expand the connectivity for AES/EBU to the subwoofer.

7.16.1 Acoustical reasons for selecting the crossover frequency

Select a crossover frequency for the group that makes acoustical sense.

• A good crossover frequency is one that shows good output from at least the subwoofer and the reference monitor.
• Even better is when there is sufficient output from all monitors at the crossover frequency.
• The output is sufficient when the level in the equalized frequency response is similar
  • to the midrange level and there is
  • no notch in the frequency response close to the crossover frequency.

• Note that for standard stereo setups placed in a symmetrical manner (equilateral triangle), it often
  • makes sense to manually set to ‘0’ the values for the time-of-flight correction and the level adjustments.
  • Usually, some small correction values appear simply because the measurement microphone is not perfectly and accurately positioned in relation to each monitor. In such cases, deleting such small correction values can improve the stereo imaging and its stability.

7.2 Calibration of SPL to Loudness Standards

The ‘Standard Loudness SPL Calibration’ feature allows calibrating the listening level in accordance with

• digital audio loudness standards, such as
  • ATSC A/85 and
  • EBU R128.
  • The calibrated listening level is important for judging correctly aspects of
    • audio quality, such as the
    • speech intelligibility,
    • spectral balance,
    • platform compatibility, etc.

 

[mel]

7.16.1 Acoustical reasons for selecting the crossover frequency

Select a crossover frequency for the group that makes acoustical sense.

• A good crossover frequency is one that shows good output from at least the subwoofer and the reference monitor.
• Even better is when there is sufficient output from all monitors at the crossover frequency.
• The output is sufficient when the level in the equalized frequency response is similar
  • to the midrange level and there is
  • no notch in the frequency response close to the crossover frequency.

• Note that for standard stereo setups placed in a symmetrical manner (equilateral triangle), it often
  • makes sense to manually set to ‘0’ the values for the time-of-flight correction and the level adjustments.
  • Usually, some small correction values appear simply because the measurement microphone is not perfectly and accurately positioned in relation to each monitor. In such cases, deleting such small correction values can improve the stereo imaging and its stability.

View attachment 139817

8.3 Sound Character Profiler
The Sound Character Profiler (SCP) can be accessed via the ‘Group Presets’ menu item ‘Sound Character Profiler’.

• If you feel the overall spectral balance of your system needs adjustment, i.e.
  • making the sound generally darker or brighter,
  • the Sound Character Profiler found in the Group pull-down menu is a quick place to start. The settings in the Sound Character Profiler will affect all monitors and subwoofers in the current Group.

Presets include also a Manual option, with adjustable parameters,

• for even more precise tonal balancing.
• The ‘Extension’ parameter in the Manual option is used to select an effective frequency bandwidth of the SCP tool and the ‘Strength’ parameter is used to set the strength of the SCP tool.

 

[mel]

Summary
​

Everything I was naively trying to indirectly influence through my RME DAC, can be directly accomplished from GLM software. This simple post encapsulates the motivation behind this entire thread.

I am software developer. Software is my bias. Software control over the physical hardware is the ultimate solution to my mind. The key issue is matching the Genelec speaker models to your personal situation. With GLM software, many of the apparent factors that are key selling differences between manufacturer brands can probably be accommodated through software. Again, software is my bias.

7.16.1 Acoustical reasons for selecting the crossover frequency

Select a crossover frequency for the group that makes acoustical sense.

• A good crossover frequency is one that shows good output from at least the subwoofer and the reference monitor.
  • Even better is when there is sufficient output from all monitors at the crossover frequency.
• The output is sufficient when the level in the equalized frequency response is similar
  • to the midrange level and there is
  • no notch in the frequency response close to the crossover frequency.

View attachment 139817

A powerful GLM feature is:

 

[mel]

These rectangular 7.1.4 and circular 5.1 layout diagrams differ substantially.
​

I am only interested in 5.1 music, without consideration for TV. I don't own a TV.

• The seating position ("S") for 5.1 circular diagram is positioned at the center of the room, not oriented according to the walls.
• The flaw with rectangular positioning is that it ignores acoustic focal points achieved by an oval shape.
• Dolby Atmos 7.1.4 is not a direct overlay over 5.1.
  • The positions, distances, angles and wall orientation differ.

5.1 audio positioning layout. The walls are missing from this diagram, so assume a square room. The chair is positioned in the center of the square.

 

[mel]

A further consideration for subwoofer and speaker compatibility.

• The 7050C is not for 5.1 8030-based systems.
• My room volume is 5m x 13m x 3m = 195 m3, which is more than double 75 m3.

https://assets.ctfassets.net/4zjnzn...36e4e483af87f54c614ba1f/7050c_en_fi_opman.pdf

 

[mel]

The diagram that most specifically illustrates my configuration.

My RME DAC has XLR analog output that would connect to 7350 subwoofer XLR analog input. The subwoofer is the hub, not the speakers.

• I would need to buy a Tidal-compatible digital pre-amp (with XLR AES output) for 5.1.
  • I don't find much 5.1 content, so 5.1 is pretty much a non-issue.
  • I now seem to recall Tidal balked at my HDMI connection to AV receiver.
    • Tidal may want some specific digital capability like MQA or Atoms.
• I don't find much Dolby Atoms 7.1 music content.
• MQA seems to be impacting music that would otherwise be encoded as Dolby Atmos 7.1, at least on Tidal.
  • I see far more MQA than Atmos encodings on Tidal.
    • I find very few MQA encodings for my interests on Tidal, either.
  • I don't have any MQA albums in my collection, so MQA is unimportant to me.
• The digital immersive content situation casts serious doubt on which technology is worth investing in.

  • [*]https://www.whathifi.com/us/reviews/sennheiser-ambeo-soundbar
    [*]This might actually be a great solution for my small bedroom.
    

    • A second stereo system near my desk is difficult to space constraints.
    • My bedroom has an eight foot "knee wall" that is six feet high.
      • I could place the Sennheiser Ambeo on the knee wall to play music into the kitchen.
    • The reason my micro AudioEngine HD3s/REL subwoofers work so well is they are an appropriate fit for my space, not that are the best sounding speakers.
    • A 5.1 sound system does not fit well in my space that is oval-shaped, like a race car track.

    [*][*][*]

https://assets.ctfassets.net/4zjnzn...88f0e139d15/genelec_sam_brochure_2014_web.pdf

 

[mel]

The diagram that most specifically illustrates my configuration.

My RME DAC has XLR analog output that would connect to 7350 subwoofer XLR analog input. The subwoofer is the hub, not the speakers.

• I would need to buy a Tidal-compatible digital pre-amp (with XLR AES output) for 5.1.
  • I don't find much 5.1 content, so 5.1 is pretty much a non-issue.
  • I now seem to recall Tidal balked at my HDMI connection to AV receiver.
    • Tidal may want some specific digital capability like MQA or Atoms.
• I don't find much Dolby Atoms 7.1 music content.
• MQA seems to be impacting music that would otherwise be encoded as Dolby Atmos 7.1, at least on Tidal.
  • I see far more MQA than Atmos encodings on Tidal.
    • I find very few MQA encodings for my interests on Tidal, either.
  • I don't have any MQA albums in my collection, so MQA is unimportant to me.
• The digital immersive content situation casts serious doubt on which technology is worth investing in.

https://assets.ctfassets.net/4zjnzn...88f0e139d15/genelec_sam_brochure_2014_web.pdf

View attachment 139842​

I am going to postpone the Genelec decision. As an iPhone developer, I am keenly aware of Apple's ability to make mediocre technology succeed. Apple is one of the few companies that I don't bet against. Let's wait and see whether Dolby Atmos gains acceptance for music recordings due to Apple Music.

 

[voodooless]

.. and we're back to square one ..

 

[mel]

.. and we're back to square one ..

Not really. Here's why waiting is worth it. '1615 – Gabrieli in Venice' in cathedrals are some of my, if not most, favorite recordings.

The Genelec 5.1 does not fit in my space. My micro AudioEngine HD3 speakers work so well because they are such a great fit for my space, not because they are great audio technology.

https://www.gramophone.co.uk/other/article/dolby-atmos-taking-music-into-a-new-dimension

f Dolby Atmos, Auro-3D and DTS:X are to catch on, I’m sure their domestic acceptance will be driven by the availability of Hollywood movies on Blu-ray using them, rather than classical music releases. It’s a big ask, given the need to set up systems to suit the various configurations, and the growing recognition that which soundtrack is available on which disc (or indeed receiver) is as likely to be determined by industry politics as customer demand.

However, the sound available on the King’s College Choir release shows that these ‘extended surround’ formats, with their ‘3D’ sound, have much to offer when it comes to the appreciation not only of the music, but the space in which it is performed.

It’s all about the aural clues we pick up almost unconsciously when we listen in a concert hall or church – and nothing to do with flying double basses.

 

[mel]

Not really. Here's why waiting is worth it. '1615 – Gabrieli in Venice' in cathedrals are some of my, if not most, favorite recordings.

The Genelec 5.1 does not fit in my space. My micro AudioEngine HD3 speakers work so well because they are such a great fit for my space, not because they are great audio technology.

The space for 7.1 is too demanding. I have doubts about Sennheiser Ambeo, too.

https://professional.dolby.com/siteassets/cinema-products---documents/dolby-atmos-specifications.pdf

According to Sennheiser, the effect is best if the

• walls and ceiling are no more than five meters (about 16 feet) from the soundbar;
  • otherwise, the reflected sound might be noticeably delayed.

Sennheiser recommends installing the speaker

• in the center of a wall
• at least 39 inches (1 meter) from
  • the side walls or
  • ceiling.
• You have to give this thing room to work, so if you can't do that,
  • this probably isn't the soundbar for you.

All listener speakers should be at the same height,

• typically 3.9 feet (1.2 meters),
  • which is ear level for the average seated listener (as defined in ITU-R BS. 1116-1).
• If possible, the height of the rear speakers should be the same as the height of the front speakers.

HDMI 2.1 is the latest version. It allows streaming of advanced surround sound formats like Dolby Atmos and DTS:X and supports 8K video.

For speakers:

• Minimum Layout Length: 3.5 meters (= distance from Center baffle to your back-surround line)\
• Minimum Layout Width: 3.0 meters (= distance between you side-surround speakers). \
• Minimum LayoutHeight: 2.4 meters (= distance measured from the floor at mix position to the acoustic center of your overhead speakers)May 18, 2021

While two Dolby Atmos-enabled speakers, modules, or overhead speakers will deliver a compelling experience, we recommend using four if possible. This will deliver more precisely located and realistic overhead sounds. ... Dolby Atmos speaker layouts parallel the 5.1 and 7.1 setups for surround sound. A 5.1.

DTS is encoded at a higher bit-rate and therefore is considered by some experts to be better quality. Others argue that Dolby Digital's technology is more advanced and produces better sound quality at a lower bit-rate.4 days ago

With Dolby Digital, when an illusion of someone behind the audience needs to be created, the sound is simply thrown to the intended speaker. This is because Dolby Digital is a speaker-based system. Dolby Atmos, on the other hand, does not push the sound to a certain speaker. Instead, it pushes the sound to a 3D space.

 

[mel]

.. and we're back to square one ..

Here's a favorite jazz album by Art Blakey in Dolby Atmos. I can tell my system strains to play what is recorded. Compare it to the "Master" version.

 

[mel]

Here's a favorite jazz album by Art Blakey in Dolby Atmos. I can tell my system strains to play what is recorded. Compare it to the "Master" version.

The Drum Thunder Suite clearly points out the limits of my system. I would love to hear it in full sound.