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When is it right to denounce music and stop playing it?

devopsprodude

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Also, to answer the broader question posted in the OP. We should denounce anyone who's doing or has done nasty stuff. Bigotry, sexism, abuse, violent acts, etc. shouldn't be tolerated from anyone, let alone someone who makes money off of art. I personally don't want any part in supporting someone who has a history of hurting others, or seeking to hurt others.
 

Ron Texas

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As long as you throw Eric Clapton in the pit too.
What Eric Clapton said was wrong and shows a moral lapse, but Roger Waters is an activist, the face of BDS and an organizer of hatred of Jews. Waters is at least 2 orders of magnitude worse than Clapton. However, our asymmetrical cancel culture gives Waters a pass.
 
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restorer-john

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This is a not even an on the radar thing, I thought we were talking about actual harm to others.
Wham! was pitched as two good-time boys having the time of their life with girls, romances and all the typical teenage stuff dreams were made of in the early 1980s. We didn't think for one minute he was batting for the other team and absolutely, yes, it was a betrayal in our young minds as we had invested our time, money and emotions into his music. Suddenly all the lyrics were very suspect to us. Nobody I knew would be seen dead playing Wham! or GM after the revelations and all the sordid stuff that made the headlines. I don't think I played his music for years, maybe until the Faith Album in 1987.

But we all grew up thankfully, and his music matured along with our attitudes.

As for Roger Waters (mentioned above), I know nothing about his apparent issues and nor do I care. Don't like much of Pink Floyd and apart fromn his Radio Kaos album, I could take it or leave it. Certainly don't feel the need to be publicly "outraged" about it, that's for sure.
 

scott wurcer

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What Eric Clapton said was wrong and shows a moral lapse, but Roger Waters is an activist, the face of BSD and an organizer of hatred of Jews. Waters is at least 2 orders of magnitude worse than Clapton. However, our asymmetrical cancel culture gives Waters a pass.
Do you think the same of Noam Chomsky?
 

scott wurcer

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Noam Chomsky is a communist. I'm not exactly what you mean by think the same.
OK, I thought you might have been familiar with his views on Israel and Palestine. Disagreeing with the policies of Israel does not make you anti-Jewish. Chomsky is a communist is so trite a comment that I will ignore it.
 

MakeMineVinyl

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I don't have much to add other than I don't have trouble separating a person's art from their lives. Perhaps that's because I've known many scumbags in my earlier music/film days, but they still made good art. Hell, I was married to a pianist who turned out to be a scumbag.
 

Ron Texas

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OK, I thought you might have been familiar with his views on Israel and Palestine. Disagreeing with the policies of Israel does not make you anti-Jewish. Chomsky is a communist is so trite a comment that I will ignore it.
Leftists don't like Israel. I find your statement objectionable, but beyond that I won't take the bait.
 
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Stating that Noam Chomsky is a Communist is like saying that power cables do make a difference in sound - i believe McArthy is long gone- !
He is a great professor in his subject, inclined to pacifistic anarchism and not in communism. Absolutelly not the same thing.

There are certain reasons to denounce Roger Waters (his last record was atrocious !!!!! ) but not his anti-semitism. I am sure he has many Jew friends that support him too.
Critisising a certain regime for inhumane acts is not a reason of accusing anyone of certain -isms. I myself with an uncle being one of the few Greek survivors from the concentration camps, two broken ribs from a fight with some Golden Dawn Neo-Nazi goons, for their acts in the local synagogue and having read with my kids, while they were still in the kindergarden, Art Spiegelman's "Maus" as "lesson to be learned early in your life kids" i cannot say that i stand sympathetic to a regime that advertises their weapons as reliable since they were primarly tested in people.

Unfortunatelly the whole hatred in our mediterranean neighborhood is fed by religious beliefs which in turn -as they are based on religion not objective hard facts- promote dogma, fanatisism and hatred between people. I have critisized both sides attrocities but right now the bully in the area is the state that builds huge walls, bombs hospitals, shoots kids and condemn people to starvation.

There is no difference here with the fight (???) between Greece and Turkey. I have many Turkish friends that i enjoy their open minds and friendship and on the other side i see all the religious morrons, Christian Orthodoxes and Muslims that they fanatically support their f...ing absolute God-given truth and superiority both promoting violence and hatred. Since this is an objectivity promoting forum it is good not to be guided by sentiment but on facts and to recognise fanatisism as a power that keeps us blind-sighted and deprives us from our objectivity.

Apologies if with all above i offended someone, Didn't mean to.

Long talk short :) i cannot denounce Waters for his beliefs but for his present music (his work with Pink Floyd is another matter!)
I cannot denounce Wagner for his racism, "Der ring des Nibelungen" is my second most favourite classical composition (Beethoven's ninth being my first :)). Still, i will point Wagners beliefs every time a discussion about his work and life arise.
Being a great artist does not make you a great person or immune to strange dogmas and actions. No person is without fault.

Someone above mentioned paedophiles. That is another story. Practising absolute power to defensless living creatures that kids are, is barbaric and a hideous monstrosity, there is no excuse for such an act. There's no support nor sympathy for any paedophile being a good artist, good scientist, good whatever. He/She is a monster.
 

mansr

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I know and agree that Wagner was a hateful person and a bad character as far as I know, and I know that Hitler liked his work.
Remember that Wagner died before Hitler was born. It doesn't seem right to hold the former accountable for the latter liking his works.
 

gene_stl

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An interesting "fact" is that "zionism equals racism" originated in the KGB after Israel aligned with the USA and won a couple of wars against their neighbors. The same place where "the Protocols" originated. Most American leftists don't realize they are parroting KGB fake news. I am sure Chomsky does. (You can find references to this statement at the Begin Sadat Center)

It is very easy for a Greek to criticize Israel. Nobody objects to Greeks having their own country. (Except Turkey) Nobody objects to Englishmen being in England nor Poles in Poland, or whatever. We lost our country in the face of Roman might that crushed everyone and didn't let them destroy us and now we have taken our country back. We won't say we are sorry. The local Arabs have said no and committed violence every step of the way.
The Israelis are criticised in the press for not vaccinating the Palestinians while the Gazans fire rockets. Hospitals are (regularly) bombed by the Syrian regime , not the Israelis.

There are much worse humanitarian disasters than those that have befallen the Palestinians but Noam Chomsky and Roger Waters and other Jew Haters don't speak up about them. The Myanmmar regime has ethnically cleansed the Rohinga. They are having refuge in BanglaDesh itself the result of ethnic injustice. It was pointed out by a British historian that nobody raises so much as a peep about all the Muslims and Hindus that had to change places when India and Pakistan were partitioned. That dispute is considered "settled" and nobody thinks they have a right of return.
(See the History Debunked you tube channel) It is these reasons that make me think that most criticism of Israel and Zionism are just Euphemisms for Jew Hating.
 
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An interesting "fact" is that "zionism equals racism" originated in the KGB after Israel aligned with the USA and won a couple of wars against their neighbors. The same place where "the Protocols" originated. Most American leftists don't realize they are parroting KGB fake news. I am sure Chomsky does. (You can find references to this statement at the Begin Sadat Center)
Most of us know the origins of zionist / protocols story and how it's been used by the Stalinists. I am also sure that Chomsky as an educated man and Jew himself is aware of the Stalinist plot. If you have studied his books you have been aware that he is not using it as an argument to the Israely regime. He has his own arguments.

It is very easy for a Greek to criticize Israel. Nobody objects to Greeks having their own country. (Except Turkey)
On the contrary. If you ever ask any of the many Greek nationalists, they see enemies everywhere. Be the Albanians from the side of Ioannina, the Northern Macedonians from the side of Salonika, the Bulgarians from the far Northern side. If you ask the Albanians, Bulgarians or Northern Macedonians about Greece they will tell you that it seeks to conquer their lands. So there are many enemies, but are they true? No to my eyes. Do they serve well to be enemies ? Positively. Look at the money Greece spends for weapons and the goverments rating in corruption/bribbery and you will understand who benefits. And criticizing any nationalist and trigger-happy state/nation be it yours or any allied to the present far-right goverment does not come easy here in Greece. Trust me it comes with large personal cost.

We lost our country in the face of Roman might that crushed everyone and didn't let them destroy us and now we have taken our country back. We won't say we are sorry. The local Arabs have said no and committed violence every step of the way.
My friend, I completely agree that every person in the world must have a place to live. A place that he must feel safe. Chomsky, I, Waters and many more are not critisizing how the dispute begun. We critisize the means being to used to be terminated. Killing children is absolutelly not the way. I expect from people that suffered so much -and it is undeniable- in the hands of fanatics, be it the Christians, the German Nationalists, or the Stalinists, to understand that, and not repeat the past mistakes.


It is these reasons that make me think that most criticism of Israel and Zionism are just Euphemisms for Jew Hating.
No Jew hater here. I do nate hate Jews neither hate Albanians, Turks, Bulgarians, Slavs or whatever ethnicity you may have in your mind as opposing. I 've worked and interacted equally well with Jews, Russian, Romanians, English, Irish, Indians, Iranians and whatever nationality came in my way. Nationalism, indeed is something i hate as it serves the lowest and most animalistic of the human nature. It doesn't matter if it comes from Jews, Greeks or whomever. It is a primitive instict that to my belief should have been eliminated by Science and Education, but still reigns due to greed.

Apologies if i was long again. Believe that i / we must stop arguing about the matter and start discussing about music that connects people.
 

scott wurcer

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Leftists don't like Israel. I find your statement objectionable, but beyond that I won't take the bait.
Ron I follow many of your comments here and respect your input let us forget this unfortunate political trivia and keep to audio.
 

scott wurcer

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Apologies if with all above i offended someone, Didn't mean to.
Not me for sure. I was brought up in a totally racist blue collar midwestern environment and hated it. I never traveled to the east coast until I went to MIT in 1968. I loved the diversity and had several good friends that were Jewish. I was invited to visit one of them at home in NJ and got a surprising taste of racism aimed my way. His family asked why he would bring a boring gentile into their home because they are an inferior race and probably Nazis (I am not exaggerating). I just kept eating my gefilte fish, I swore even at the age of 18 to never ever make a racist comment.
 

Robin L

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gene_stl

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Warring with and disliking your neighbor seems to be deeply ingrained in human nature. I am sure @thrash is an equanimious person as I attempt to be. But science has not caught up with nature.

Similarly Mother Nature has programmed us to procreate. I can see the engineering point of it , otherwise we would be extinct. And we have all seen cases where people voluntarily get into relationships with rich and powerful people. The flip side of "me too". None of this is going away any time soon because the behavior won't. And the press and internet love it because it makes great copy and click bait.

The flip side of the denouncement question can be exemplified by the Eric Clapton comments. I expect Eric to play the guitar well. I don't look to him nor any of the others mentioned to form my political opinions. I had never heard about that rant which certainly did not raise his stock price with me. But it WAS in 1976 and I think he has been a pretty good boy since and gotten lots of money for blues players of color.

I feel very differently about pedophiles and accused rapists.
 

mansr

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The flip side of the denouncement question can be exemplified by the Eric Clapton comments. I expect Eric to play the guitar well. I don't look to him nor any of the others mentioned to form my political opinions. I had never heard about that rant which certainly did not raise his stock price with me. But it WAS in 1976 and I think he has been a pretty good boy since and gotten lots of money for blues players of color.
I still have no idea what he supposedly said or when. That's a common problem with witch hunts.
 
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