Audio Recording - is it ever realistic?

[kmanusa]

I play a fair amount of orchestral music on my systems. I understand lots of audio files have traditionally liked “ naturally mic’d” orchestral recordings, the capture with a feel to be a natural balance of the hall sound to the orchestra, rather than a spotlight sound on the sections. I enjoy those recordings to.

But I absolutely love orchestra based soundtrack recordings that are more dramatic and creative. Plenty of Bernard Herrmann’s soundtracks feature close micing of the instruments, especially strings, which achieve a real textual Technicolour presence. I absolutely love it. And it can sound very “ real” in its own way because of that vivid presence.

Vis. the Bernard Hermann soundtracks, I agree. Two of my favorites were "The Mysterious Film World of Bernard Hermann" and "The Fantasy Film Word of Bernard Hermann", both on London/Decca. While some folks felt these Phase 4 recordings were overly gimmicky and unnatural, I always loved their presence, liveliness, and transparency. A plus was that they were made in Kingsway Hall. Not too much hall sound on these though thanks to the close mikes. They were a very enjoyable listen and as you say real in their own way because of that presence.

 

[MattHooper]

"The Mysterious Film World of Bernard Hermann" and "The Fantasy Film Word of Bernard Hermann", both on London/Decca.

Yep, you just named for me two of the most thrilling albums in my music library. I love absolutely everything about the music and recordings.

(I’d had those on CD for many years but a while back I managed to track down some of the original vinyl pressings and my goodness do they sound good!)

 

[MattHooper]

My point is that when elements of realism come through, we should not simply assume that we're getting a glimpse of actual reality, of what the performance(s) really sounded like. We might be - but just as often, and probably more often, we're not.

To piggyback back off your post a little…

I had two things:

1. When it comes to realism through an audio system I have sort of two versions of this: there’s a type of experiences that can cue, as you say, a “sense” of realism… and even if the sound isn’t actually very realistic.

By this, I mean, we all know how often high-end systems that shows etc. are demoed with a single female vocal and sparse accompaniment, or things of that nature.
Many systems can conjure up an ultra vivid apparition of a voice or instrument between the loudspeakers. When it’s incredibly clear and detailed it cues that “ there is something real in front of me between the speakers” feeling because it’s so vivid.

But at the same time, relative to the real thing, it can actually sound incredibly artificial. The voice due to either recording method or processing, may lack the natural timbre of the human voice, have exaggerated sibilance, and an overall artificial or electronic or mechanical quality. So it may sound
“ real” but not actually “ like the real thing.”

That’s a reason why I have so often either compared similar tracks through loudspeakers to actual human voices, or done the closed eyes test to remind me just how artificial the voice sounds compared to the real thing.

2. When discussing the concept of realism through a high end system, there are those who seem to think that’s only pertinent to audiophile-type recordings that where meant to sound documentary style capturing live event. Chesky kind of stuff.

But nobody has to necessarily try to create sonic realism and a recording for it to occur.
There are so many different recordings in many genres that cue a sense of realism perhaps because they’ve captured a rich detailed recording of certain instruments, and even artificially placed instruments in a jazz band recording can give that impression of the performers playing in front of you.

I enjoy a genre called Library music and especially stuff that contains lots of brass woodwinds drums percussion as well as strings. A lot of it was recorded by really terrific engineers, who were not trying to do a Chesky like presentation, but nonetheless the recording quality is so good and so nicely balanced the sensation of being in front of real instruments and bands can be sensational.

 

[LTig]

Vis. the Bernard Hermann soundtracks, I agree. Two of my favorites were "The Mysterious Film World of Bernard Hermann"

This one? Sounds great.

and "The Fantasy Film Word of Bernard Hermann", both on London/Decca.

This one, I assume:

 

[LTig]

[..] The fact so few threads at ASR are focused on recording authenticity and instead on tiniest nuances on playback authenticity has always puzzled me, when it is the former that has by far the biggest impact.

The point is that we as customers have no influence on the recording but on the play back chain only. For classics you do have a choice between different recordings (with the disadvantage of a different interpretation) but in pop/rock there's usually no choice - take the existing recording or leave it.

 

[watchnerd]

Vis. the Bernard Hermann soundtracks, I agree. Two of my favorites were "The Mysterious Film World of Bernard Hermann" and "The Fantasy Film Word of Bernard Hermann", both on London/Decca. While some folks felt these Phase 4 recordings were overly gimmicky and unnatural, I always loved their presence, liveliness, and transparency. A plus was that they were made in Kingsway Hall. Not too much hall sound on these though thanks to the close mikes. They were a very enjoyable listen and as you say real in their own way because of that presence.

Was Phase 4 some kind of quad format?

 

[watchnerd]

I've had lots of experiences like that. I recorded a string quartet + guitar in two venues on the same day. One was a big church with high ceilings and a long reverb tail. Made for a lovely recording - one could easily balance the direct and hall sound. The other recording, made later that day, was in a small room with 10' ceilings. A room small enough that temperature would rise during the recordings, requiring that the performers had to tune between movements. Sound was predictably nasty. These recordings were made for the group in advance of making commercial recordings for Harmonia Mundi. Those turned out just lovely:

I have that album!

 

[kmanusa]

This one? Sounds great.

This one, I assume:

Yep those are the ones!

 

[kmanusa]

Was Phase 4 some kind of quad format?

Actually it was a multi channel recording process used to create stereo recordings that were released on LPs. I think the term referred to the 4 phase process that London/Decca used to create the recordings. I believe they used a 10 channel console during recordings that was mixed down onto 4 channel tape and which was then used to generate stereo masters for LP. I do not know if London/Decca has ever contemplated rereleasing some of these recordings in modern multichannel formats. I believe the Bernard Herrmann recordings mentioned above are both accessible via streaming services in Hi-Res stereo.

 

[Scytales]

Actually it was a multi channel recording process used to create stereo recordings that were released on LPs. I think the term referred to the 4 phase process that London/Decca used to create the recordings. I believe they used a 10 channel console during recordings that was mixed down onto 4 channel tape and which was then used to generate stereo masters for LP. I do not know if London/Decca has ever contemplated rereleasing some of these recordings in modern multichannel formats. I believe the Bernard Herrmann recordings mentioned above are both accessible via streaming services in Hi-Res stereo.

I'd rather defined the process as a multi-track recording than a multichannel recording.

A Decca sound engineer speaks about and demonstrates it in this very short video:

It is basically a matter of highlighting a track that contained a particular instrument or voice by raising the level of said track to make it stand out in the mix.

 

[kmanusa]

I'd rather defined the process as a multi-track recording than a multichannel recording.

A Decca sound engineer speaks about and demonstrates it in this very short video:

It is basically a matter of highlighting a track that contained a particular instrument or voice by raising the level of said track to make it stand out in the mix.

Wonderful video, thanks for sharing! I agree with your characterization of "multi-track" rather than multichannel! Clearly, Phase 4 miking was the antithesis of the "purist" approach used by some labels for classical recordings in the early days of stereo, e.g., the 3-mike approach used by Bob Fine for Mercury in the 1950s. I believe Telarc used a similar approach to Mercury for some of their very earliest classical music recordings.

Of course, which if any of these approaches result in more "real" sounding recordings is another matter entirely. IMHO, they both can yield enjoyable results. Other miking approaches can also yield very good results, e.g., the Decca "tree" used by Kenneth Wilkinson.

 

[mixsit]

I've had lots of experiences like that. I recorded a string quartet + guitar in two venues on the same day. One was a big church with high ceilings and a long reverb tail. Made for a lovely recording - one could easily balance the direct and hall sound. The other recording, made later that day, was in a small room with 10' ceilings. A room small enough that temperature would rise during the recordings, requiring that the performers had to tune between movements. Sound was predictably nasty. These recordings were made for the group in advance of making commercial recordings for Harmonia Mundi. Those turned out just lovely:

I'm enjoying this very much. I was wondering if you might describe the recording methods and details as it isn't mentioned in the video notes? Thanks Wayne

 

[Robin L]

Wonderful video, thanks for sharing! I agree with your characterization of "multi-track" rather than multichannel! Clearly, Phase 4 miking was the antithesis of the "purist" approach used by some labels for classical recordings in the early days of stereo, e.g., the 3-mike approach used by Bob Fine for Mercury in the 1950s.

Herbert von Karajan had more than the usual level of input for his producers/engineers. A lot of his Berlin Philharmonic recordings for DGG use a similar approach. His mid-seventies "Symphonie Fantastique" has an oboe pan hard left to hard right.

I believe Telarc used a similar approach to Mercury for some of their very earliest classical music recordings.

Telarc used a similar approach but different microphones - small diaphragm Schoeps Colettes to Mercury's large diaphragm Neumanns.

Of course, which if any of these approaches result in more "real" sounding recordings is another matter entirely. IMHO, they both can yield enjoyable results. Other miking approaches can also yield very good results, e.g., the Decca "tree" used by Kenneth Wilkinson.

One of my favorites, offers tight imaging along with a sense of space.

 

[Robin L]

I'm enjoying this very much. I was wondering if you might describe the recording methods and details as it isn't mentioned in the video notes? Thanks Wayne

I wasn't at the actual recording sessions, I was providing recordings for the performers in advance of making the commercial recordings. I used Neumann 140s in an ORTF configuration, I could get professional results with that gear. I've never been to a recording session for a major label (like Harmonia Mundi), though the CD shop I worked at had frequent visits from the head honcho - Rene Goiffon - of that label (Harmonia Mundi USA, that is), and I've managed to be backstage during music festivals where Harmonia Mundi was recording a live performance for commercial CDs.

According to Discogs the sessions were recorded in September 1990 at Skywalker. George Lucas' scoring stage was the preferred location for recording classical music for a variety of reasons, not least of all an arrangement Lucas made with various government forces so that no aircraft would be permitted to fly over the scoring stage/recording studio. The scoring stage is acoustically isolated by being far from any roads. Also, it is possible to adjust the room's reverb length by moving a series of slats in the ceiling. Tony Faulkner was recording engineer, Robina G. Young was producer. Although Harmonia Mundi was one of the last holdouts for analog recording, I'm pretty sure this one's DDD. Anthony Faulkner is a freelance engineer who was much in demand at the time and used simple microphone techniques for recordings like these involving smaller ensembles.

 

[kmanusa]

Herbert von Karajan had more than the usual level of input for his producers/engineers. A lot of his Berlin Philharmonic recordings for DGG use a similar approach. His mid-seventies "Symphonie Fantastique" has an oboe pan hard left to hard right.

Telarc used a similar approach but different microphones - small diaphragm Schoeps Colettes to Mercury's large diaphragm Neumanns.

One of my favorites, offers tight imaging along with a sense of space.

HvK was what we might call today a "control freak"!

Back in the day I lusted after a pair of Schoeps vacuum tube condenser mikes! A friend of a coworker was a Schoeps dealer in NYC and I was very tempted. But life interfered and the prospect of lugging around an RS-1500 to live venues ultimately deterred me from taking the plunge. Years later I had to make recordings of my daughter playing violin-- using my IPhone! I see Schoeps no longer supports the old tube condenser series so I suppose it is just as well I never took the plunge.

Agreed, the Decca tree was perhaps the best compromise and resulted in many wonderful recordings!

 

[Robin L]

HvK was what we might call today a "control freak"!

Back in the day I lusted after a pair of Schoeps vacuum tube condenser mikes! A friend of a coworker was a Schoeps dealer in NYC and I was very tempted. But life interfered and the prospect of lugging around an RS-1500 to live venues ultimately deterred me from taking the plunge. Years later I had to make recordings of my daughter playing violin-- using my IPhone! I see Schoeps no longer supports the old tube condenser series so I suppose it is just as well I never took the plunge.

Agreed, the Decca tree was perhaps the best compromise and resulted in many wonderful recordings!

I had a pair of old Schoeps tube condensers. Worst audio decision of my life. Loads of self-noise, restricted dynamics, unreliable. They made me really appreciate modern solid-state gear.

 

[kmanusa]

I had a pair of old Schoeps tube condensers. Worst audio decision of my life. Loads of self-noise, restricted dynamics, unreliable. They made me really appreciate modern solid-state gear.

Interesting, I had a friend who had a pair and he seemed to like them very much. I don't remember the model numbers any more, this was back in the 1970s. I'm not surprised about the noise and reliability issues though.

 

[Timcognito]

The point is that we as customers have no influence on the recording but on the play back chain only. For classics you do have a choice between different recordings (with the disadvantage of a different interpretation) but in pop/rock there's usually no choice - take the existing recording or leave it.

There only influence on playback, unless they design/build, is first the purchase and then speaker placement and room correction. With recordings the are 10s of millions of choices especially classical where the same music is recorded over and over with different players and venues. Bad music on good system is worse that good music on a modest one. The only reason to have a good system is to have the best music and recordings, otherwise any system would do. Most of my favorites are because of the music but minority are favorites because of how they sound and few are both.

 

[Multicore]

The point is that we as customers have no influence on the recording but on the play back chain only.

This rather like saying we have no influence over the equipment we use. We have our consumer choices and we can discuss our experiences and preferences in public. I think we've seen that some equipment makers take notice and some ASR discourse reads as though it is addressed at those makers. As consumers of commercial recordings we can do the same. Perhaps conversations at ASR aren't terribly high priority to record labels but it's where we happen to be right now.

 

[Multicore]

I'd rather defined the process as a multi-track recording than a multichannel recording.

A Decca sound engineer speaks about and demonstrates it in this very short video:

It is basically a matter of highlighting a track that contained a particular instrument or voice by raising the level of said track to make it stand out in the mix.

Thanks for sharing that. I enjoyed it.

A couple of weeks ago we were at a concert of the Philadelphia Orchestra at Marian Anderson Hall. We had very good seats and everything sounded wonderful except in the Liszt piano concerto #1 the piano wasn't always loud enough to be properly heard over the orchestra. That's an aesthetic question of balance of exactly the kind described in the video. If you insist on a purist recording method then fixing it means the conductor has to get the orchestra to pipe down. With more mics you have more options.

At that concert they placed two mics on stands in front of the piano and I noticed that there were many mics on stands throughout the orchestra and asked someone who works there about that and if it was usual. He said the orchestra records most of their performances.

As I said on page 1, all recordings are artifice. It follows, I believe, that all recording techniques are aesthetic choices and purist techniques have no special position among them -- they are just another option.