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When is it right to denounce music and stop playing it?

paulraphael

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#81
what raft? you mean people who cannot make bail?
Which is a pretty big raft.

I have yet to hear a good defense of a system that declares you innocent until proven guilty—as long as you have enough money.
 

gene_stl

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#82
Everybody knows that Wagner hated Jews and that Hitler liked his Teutonic operas and squired his widow.

What many don't know is that he accepted career help from Meyerbeer (who was Jewish) and then turned on him:
https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-...features/man-who-made-wagner-mad-8368165.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giacomo_Meyerbeer

He then penned his famous slander and calumny of Jews in music and did not even have the balls to use his own name. He used a transparent pseudonym: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Das_Judenthum_in_der_Musik

My parents were both classical musicians and the Texaco opera hour played every week end while I was growing up. They did not seem to mind listening to Wagner even though they were refugees from the Nazis. But even as a young person before I knew anything about the above I hated Wagner. All that caterwauling. I bet I was nine years old when I discovered that word and applied it to Wagner. In contrast I liked Italian , French and Mozart opera and others.

Jew hating is on the rise and I like to call it out when I can. That is why Roger Waters is prohibited from my system and anyone else who slanders us.
I also don't patronize anti American artists.

Finally in my opinion if ever there was an offense that warrants cancel culture it is pedophilia. I don't understand why I ever see Michael Jackson's name or Woody Allens. I actually propose that the Mossad go around and execute certain Jews who reflect discredit on us. Like Jeffrey Epstein, Harvey Weinstein, Joel Greenberg and others of their misbehaving ilk. (previous statement only half tongue in cheek)
 
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paulraphael

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#83
But even as a young person before I knew anything about the above I hated Wagner. All that caterwauling.
Not liking the music means there's nothing to think about. There's no ethical quandary ... just don't buy it. It's when there's something you like about it that the world gets complicated.
 

Alexanderc

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#84
I'd be curious to hear a more fine-grained explanation of your thinking here, especially with regards to Wagner and Foster. Are you worried that a public performance of their work constitutes an endorsement or acceptance of their behavior?
Yes, you have it exactly. In my line of work you must be hyper aware of the cultural and political implications of your programming. If I say more I will be WAY over the line into politics, but you get the idea.
 
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#86
what raft? you mean people who cannot make bail?
This is eye opening.... in our culture today this all comes as a mixed bag. With video evidence and the heinous nature of far too many crimes the waters on this get pretty muddy - add in a Justice system that is overburdened by sheer volume and now covid its a major crises that poses many of the same ethical dilemmas that this original post seeks to address.

And, add on top of that the recent moves in the USA towards facisim and the pollicization of the highest levels of the justice system itself, you have to wonder how this is going to play out if we have another changing of the guard in 2025. Will we be North Korea, or Russia, by the time 2026 rolls around?

Pretrial Detention | Prison Policy Initiative

Mass Incarceration: The Whole Pie 2020 | Prison Policy Initiative
 
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#89
Zeroing in on the original post if what the artist did during their lifetimes ruins your experience of hearing or viewing their art then dont buy it, or interact with it. If your love or enjoyment over powers those feelings then go for it.
 
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#90
When is it right to denounce music and stop playing it?

If you are looking for an honest response, that question may require a political response

I made a valid political decision to stop listening to Bob Dylan music over 30 years ago based on his alleged disrespect of another band
(Led Zepplin)

It was an allegation that was never denied by either side for more than 30 years and rings true to this very day

The decision had nothing to do with the quality of his music and yet it was the correct decision because it was an honest one
 

Robin L

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#91
Just saw "Zappa', the documentary of the same by Alex Winter*. On the one hand, Zappa had no difficulty being "difficult', deliberately annoying or berating his fellow artists, his audiences, his interviewers, just about anybody who crossed is path or darkened his door. The aspects that make him 'controversial' don't really matter that much to me [ok---some]. But in listening to his music again I have to ask myself: "Am I being entertained or annoyed? Is all this complication, complexity and repetition going anywhere? Or is he amusing himself more than his audience?" Zappa hasn't been a central part of my musical diet since the mid-seventies, though I did work my way through his "Classical" work in the 1990s. But upon re-acquaintance, I find myself not amused. I think that would be a good reason to denounce music [which, I suppose, is different than denouncing the person making that music] and stop listening to it.

*The most interesting aspect of this documentary is the editing style, influenced by Zappa's cutting techniques in his earliest films.
 

LTig

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#92
Just a general remark to this thread:
I don't want to repeat what I wrote in posting #9 but if you reduce your number of artists you hear/view/feel... to those without failure you'll gonna miss a lot of great art.

I know and agree that Wagner was a hateful person and a bad character as far as I know, and I know that Hitler liked his work. Still Wagner has written some of the most beautiful music and melodies this world has ever seen/heard and nobody should feel ashamed listening to it and enjoying it, or being bullied by others doing so. It's everybodies personal decision which should not be commented in a negative way.
 

Daverz

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#93
Are you making a complaint or just a statement?
Both a statement (the topic is inherently political) and a whine: Someone Was wrong On The Internet and the conversation was shut down before I could reply.
 

Beave

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#96
When is it right to denounce music and stop playing it?

If you are looking for an honest response, that question may require a political response

I made a valid political decision to stop listening to Bob Dylan music over 30 years ago based on his alleged disrespect of another band
(Led Zepplin)

It was an allegation that was never denied by either side for more than 30 years and rings true to this very day

The decision had nothing to do with the quality of his music and yet it was the correct decision because it was an honest one
Was Dylan as disrespectful to them as those who repeatedly misspell the name of the band?

It's Led Zeppelin, not Led Zepplin.

:p
 

Daverz

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#97
Both a statement (the topic is inherently political) and a whine: Someone Was wrong On The Internet and the conversation was shut down before I could reply.
As long as you throw Eric Clapton in the pit too.
Did a bit of googling to see if Clapton ever sincerely apologized for his vile comments, but apparently not:

https://thegrapevine.theroot.com/eric-clapton-whitesplains-his-racism-he-even-had-a-bla-1822054554

He still does not seem to understand the damage done.
 

restorer-john

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#98
If an artist produces content you enjoy, it resonates with you, or it fits at that particular time of your life, listen and enjoy. If as you get older or issues come to light that cause you to change your view, that's fine, stop listening or buying that music.

But for goodness sake, don't try in any way, to shape or influence other people's individual choices. Music is subjective after all.

Did I get upset when I realized George Michael was gay? Yes, at first, because it seemed like all his Wham! songs were fake and he'd lied to us all. It didn't take long before I 'forgave' him and listened to his content and new content. Michael Jackson was part of the soundtrack to my youth. Do I listen much to it anymore? Nope, but not for any reason other than it's 4 decades on and I've moved on too.
 

devopsprodude

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If you own music made by problematic artists, I see no reason to stop listening to it, and certainly don't think destroying the media does anything.

However, I do think it should give one pause when recommending certain recordings, or listening to them on services where the artist is paid per play. But really, that's an individual choice.

Also worth noting that claims shouldn't be taken at face value. One should do their own research to verify the facts of a particular matter. For instance, for years, I know of people who wouldn't buy anything made/sold by Krups, because of supposed use of Jewish slaves during WW II. Except it turns out that the actual group in question was the Krupp family, which has nothing to do at all with the Krups brand. Of course, back in the 1980s, it was a lot harder to verify such claims, but these days, it's not so difficult.
 
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