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What is the cause of "digital glare"?

Blumlein 88

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I see. Hmm, not good. Glad it hasn't been my recording software of choice thus far...
I remembered another thing related to SIY's comment. You need to pay attention to the Preference setting for dither. Your choices are none which can lead to zero stuffing or artifacts if going 24 bit to 16 bit. And a couple others. I seem to recall Audacity always dithers 16 bit files even 16 to 16 bit unless you have dither turned to none. Yet 24 to 24 bit files don't dither, only 24 or 32 bit float to 16 bit dithers.

Now I use Audacity all the time and it is great software for some purposes, but not without its faults. I can live with that because it is free.
 

gvl

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But wouldn't the glare then clearly be audible after 8 generations (i.e. Blumlein's test)?

I guess I'm saying the perceived glare may be a manifestation of how a transparent DAC sounds. The lesser glare is a symptom of a less transparent DAC. NOS filterless DACs have no glare, so do vinyl recordings. I keep coming across comments that Benchmark DACs are too bright, e.g. glare. Dunno, I need to do my ABX test. If that falls apart the answer will be obvious.
 
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andreasmaaan

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I guess I'm saying the perceived glare may be a manifestation of how a transparent DAC sounds. The lesser glare is a symptom of a less transparent DAC. NOS filterless DACs have no glare, so do vinyl recordings. I keep coming across comments that Benchmark DACs are too bright, e.g. glare. Dunno, I need to do my ABX test. If that falls apart the answer will be obvious.

That makes sense. Interested to hear what you find.
 

dc655321

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I guess I'm saying the perceived glare may be a manifestation of how a transparent DAC sounds.

This.
Maybe I missed it, but I don't think I've seen anyone on this thread question what you (or anyone else) is putting into your system as being a possible source of "glare".
 

Blumlein 88

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I guess I'm saying the perceived glare may be a manifestation of how a transparent DAC sounds. The lesser glare is a symptom of a less transparent DAC. NOS filterless DACs have no glare, so do vinyl recordings. I keep coming across comments that Benchmark DACs are too bright, e.g. glare. Dunno, I need to do my ABX test. If that falls apart the answer will be obvious.
No glare in Vinyl? You've never heard the fine results of orchestral recordings of Deustche Grammophone from the 70s and 80's have you?
 

gvl

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No glare in Vinyl? You've never heard the fine results of orchestral recordings of Deustche Grammophone from the 70s and 80's have you?

I have not. However this is probably more of an exception than the rule, if there is glare that is.
 

JustIntonation

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Btw. I almost forgot but I thought of one possible alternative theory regarding DAC differences in real life settings.
And that is differences in impedance.

It could in my case explain most of it actually. Perhaps in many other people's cases as well, enough to create a trend?
I have an Anaview AMS0100 amp. It has no real input stage and input impedance is between I belief 1K3 and 12K depending on input signal (depending on what exactly, frequency? I don't know). In addition it behaves differently when fed a balanced signal and an unbalanced signal.
The difference between connecting it balanced and unpbalanced and short and long cables and output impedance of the source are all audible.
I did not take this into account when I tried different DACs in the past and if the DACs had a different output impedance this alone should have caused an audible difference.
However, I also heard differences with my cheap small active nearfield monitors. I have no idea what the input impedance on those is though. Perhaps it's sub standard as well they're really cheap (I think 80 euro a pair or so). If so this could explain it all in my case.

In addition. Could it be that certain output chips with a certain output impedance are more often used for for instance the ESS mobile DACs? For instance lets say they have on average a low output impedance? On average lower than other DACs. And what if there's much more equipment out there people are connecting their DACs too that do not have a high enough or stable enough input impedance? Coupled with long cables in many cases as well.. That could lead to audible differences in real world use between DACs that measure equal when hooked up to a measuring device that has a good high impedance input stage.
 

Guermantes

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Depending upon the device.

I've only had hands on a handful of recording interfaces. None of them will record using WASAPI in Audacity. Some will playback with WASAPI some won't.

What Audacity needs is ASIO support, but ASIO is not open source so it isn't happening.

I see that Presonus has a free version of their Studio One software with ASIO support (doesn't support third-party plugins, though):
https://shop.presonus.com/Studio-One-4-Prime
 

gvl

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When I was driving home yesterday night from a Muse concert in San Diego to Los Angeles with my ears ringing I had plenty of time to ponder on the true meaning of digital glare. But the real kicker came in the morning when I found they will also be playing in LA a week from now. Oh well, it was a good show.
 

Blumlein 88

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Perhaps it would have had the ADC not have conveniently compensated?


https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...neration-digital-copy.6827/page-4#post-152990

I don't know. In the case from a couple years ago the ADC and DAC compensated for flat response. If glare is merely frequency response you may have a point (and I do believe most complaints are actually of hearing flat response as glare). In the more recent 8th generation the ADC has a slight ripple that builds with generations, and a tiny overall droop while the DAC has simply flat response. Again if digital glare is merely frequency response the fix is easy. I believe most listeners think digital has some kind of inherent glare beyond response. I also believe they are mistaken.
 

Shadrach

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Some people do hear what they call digital glare. The interesting thing is why.
A guy called Bob Carver probably explained this unintentionally when he said he could make a cheap amp sound like any expensive amp one cared to name. I believe Stereophile took him up on this challenge and lost. Bob Carver used null testing to find the frequencies that differed from one amp to another and tweaked his amp to match. So, they would if measured before tweaking, measure differently.
In making his point the point that one amplifier could sound different got lost in the shit storm.
This point being that one amplifier that measures the same as another should be indistinguishable from each other.
But, many amplifiers, particularly at the high end of audio are deliberately engineered to sound different.
Some custom amplifiers, particularly some valve amps are designed to sound different and don't measure the same as an amp designed to give as flat a response as possible.
So, if you are used to an amp say for example that has a high frequency roll off or whatever other 'features' that may have been added to make it sound appealing rather than accurate, an accurate digital setup could well sound a bit bright.
The point is, some people just haven't listened to, or don't like a properly transparent system. I am one of those people.
It's not that I believe in this case my speakers are transparent because I know they are not. I've 'tuned' them to my taste; not to as accurate as I can get them.
 

Frank Dernie

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I buy quite a few CD collections in boxes. The one thing that stands out playing them is to what a huge extent the original recordings vary.
Earlier this week I was listening to a disc containing piano music for 4 hands by Schubert and Mozart. This is a collection of recordings made at 2 different sessions, in different recording venues.
The ones recorded at The Maltings, Snape sounded lovely to me on my system but the ones recorded at Abbey Road studios had a slight jangly, harsh quality to them.
These recordings will probably have been made using different microphones and recorder as well as the different acoustics of the recording venue.
Replay was (obviously) the same hifi system but the sound was very different between them, if I had just listened to the Abbey Road recording I may well have felt what some refer to as digital glare, the Maltings recording, otoh, displayed what fabulous sound quality is possible from CD.
Is the accusation of digital glare a case of blaming the messenger for the message, in a way?
 

Sergei

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In order to better understand the issue, we ought to take into account at least two biases prevalent in the developed world:

(1) Professionals are paid well enough to afford decent to excellent audio gear.

(2) Negative reviews of audio gear are suppressed, either culturally or through money factors.

For me, reviews on Russian site https://carmus.ru were illuminating. The site's primary mission is sharing knowledge among car audio systems installers. The reviews are quite different from the ones you'd find in English-language sources:

(A) Their customers are constantly pushing them to install dirt-cheap gear, some of which - usually made by lower-tier Chinese manufactures - isn't even available in the US.

(B) Slavic cultures tolerate criticism better than the Western ones. If a piece of gear measures like sh*t and sounds like one, the reviewers find it acceptable to just say so.

(C) They disassemble the gear, and list the model numbers of critical active components. They also sometimes opine on the parameters dispersion of the passive components they find inside the box.

After reading couple of dozen reviews of car amplifiers - some of them rated as exceptionally clean-sounding, some of the them as OK, and some of them as having unbearable glare - I formed an opinion that the sensation of glare could in many cases be associated with intermodulation distortion, measured via protocols not widely used in the West.

For instance, look at https://carmus.ru/content/236. This is a review of a budget A/B car amplifier, which was found to sound "harsh". The spectrograms showing intermodulation distortions evoked by 5+6 KHz and 10+11KHz signals are revealing.

The 5+6 KHz spectrogram shows about 20 spikes in the uppermost octave, some of them as high as -45 db. Integrated over the corresponding critical band, they may produce enough power to be heard.

Compare this to a high-end amp, reportedly with a huge fan following: https://carmus.ru/content/234. The 5+6 KHz spectrogram shows only about 10 spikes in the uppermost octave, none of them higher than -80 db. The subjective evaluation section describes its sound as "airy" and "nuanced".

Also note the Linearity & Distortion Analysis graphs. I rarely see this in the Western press. Some of them are quite embarrassing to the amps manufacturers. Take this one, for instance: https://carmus.ru/content/191. It turns out that at lower signal levels its THD can be as high as 0.4%, a manifestation of the infamous "first watt problem".

Now look at this inexpensive Class D amplifier: https://carmus.ru/content/313. Not only its THD can be as high as 0.5%, but the dependency between the signal level and THD isn't even smooth. On some types of music material, with narrow dynamic range, it won't matter much. On others it may be heard as annoyingly unpredictable timbral shifts induced by signal level changes.

I don't have similar measurements of budget DACs handy, yet some of them may well exhibit similar characteristics, at least that's what I subjectively heard over the years. Most likely, this happens because of not enough attention paid to the analog output stages design, production, and quality control. The DAC chips may have something to do with this as well, yet my personal experience doesn't corroborate this.

For instance, some of Mackie professional gear uses inexpensive DAC chips dismissed by the audiophile press. However, to my ears, and to the ears of thousands of music professionals, they are transparent. On the other hand, sometimes I would get excited by a new DAC chip, only to find out that a certain presumably audiophile DAC, one of the first to the market with this chip, sounds not so good, and is not worth keeping.
 

Sergei

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My take is digital glare was invented by marketing types and audio salesmen.

My take is that it is real, and is most likely caused by the bit-perfect, wide-band digital signals inducing more noticeable distortions in inadequately designed, made, and QA-ed analog output stages, compared to distortions induced by legacy analog signals.
 

SIY

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I've seen this asserted, but the data to back up this speculation is missing.
 
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