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What is the cause of "digital glare"?

Sergei

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I've seen this asserted, but the data to back up this speculation is missing.

You can reproduce the effect yourself, by adjusting quiescent current in a classic AB amp, while switching between wide-band and narrow-band music signals. I personally found that I'd notice the effects of the current change more readily on a wide-band signal.

It was funny to discover that a certain highly acclaimed pop mix, reproduced in CD quality, is ridiculously indifferent to the level of distortions in gear. The mix was made to sound the same anywhere, by narrowing its dynamic and frequency ranges, and introducing masking distortions.

I agree that the scientifically sound data is hard to come by. Then again, experimental techniques for recording auditory responses are far from perfect at the moment, compared to what we have available, say, in Physics.

Cochlea and auditory nerve have to be well protected, and insulated from uncontrolled vibrations, thus they are hidden inside solid bone. This makes it difficult to conduct experiments: for instance, precise measurements of auditory nerve fibers activity typically result in death of a subject, such as a cat.
 

SIY

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You can reproduce the effect yourself, by adjusting quiescent current in a classic AB amp, while switching between wide-band and narrow-band music signals.

Great, so is there actual data (whether DBTs or measurements indicating audibly significant levels of distortion) from actual commercial DACs or CD players that supposedly have "digital glare"? No need to drill skulls if you can demonstrate the audibility of a ADC/DAC inserted into a signal chain via plain old DBT.
 

svart-hvitt

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Great, so is there actual data (whether DBTs or measurements indicating audibly significant levels of distortion) from actual commercial DACs or CD players that supposedly have "digital glare"? No need to drill skulls if you can demonstrate the audibility of a ADC/DAC inserted into a signal chain via plain old DBT.


Didn’t @Sergei give three links in previous post?
 

svart-hvitt

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Not that support his assertion of audible "digital glare" caused by "analog output stages."

I remember especially once where «glare» was the best desciption. It was a Marantz AV receiver. The owner liked to play loud...

After reading @amirm ’ Marantz review, I started to think, maybe (all sorts of) distortion byproducts in the digital-analog chain are audible, sound «glaring»?
 

Sergei

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Great, so is there actual data (whether DBTs or measurements indicating audibly significant levels of distortion) from actual commercial DACs or CD players that supposedly have "digital glare"?

Good question. Thanks. Made me think of yet another bias.

During one of my recent encounters with "The Glare", I had what I consider to be a good professional desktop DAC (Focusrite Forte), which to me sounded transparent with good professional near-field monitors (several models). I also had a good competition-grade car amp (Helix H400X), which to me sounded transparent with good passive speakers (also several models).

I wanted to find a car amp comparable to H400X in sound quality, yet smaller, fitting geometrical constraints of a particular car. I have both line-level and speaker-level A/B boxes, massive transformer-based 12V bench power supplies, sound level meters, oscilloscope, spectrum analyzers etc. However, I also had very limited time allocated to that stage of the project. So, as soon as sighted A/B testing allowed me to pick one out of four candidate amps, I immediately moved on to the next stage.

During the evaluation, one of the other amps, a well-reviewed in English-speaking press D-class, proved to be glaring to my ears. I just couldn't stand it, leave alone DBT. Interestingly enough, the winner, which I bought new for about 40% of the H400X price, turned out to be indistinguishable from H400X to my ears at carefully matched volume levels. At some point, I actually forgot which one was A and which one was B, and had to trace the wires from A/B box to figure it out. I got good money from selling my H400X on eBay :)

A salient point is that I didn't bother to measure in depth, figure out, and document why specifically that D-class sounded so harsh to me. I simply got rid of it as soon as I could get around to doing it, and never thought much about it, until now. Neither was I willing to tell anyone what model that was, because, you know, sound perception is so subjective: as far as I could tell, the manufacturer sold tons of them, and other people must have been happy with them.

So, here's your answer: some (most?, almost all?, all?) of those who could measure and publish the glaring gear characteristics don't bother doing it - there is usually neither time nor incentive to publish a negative review, especially if it could be perceived as entirely too subjective.
 
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daftcombo

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Has anyone tried a low-pass filter LR 24dB/oct around 12 kHz ?
If you want to get rid of "digital glare", that's my suggestion.
 

Dogen

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Has anyone tried a low-pass filter LR 24dB/oct around 12 kHz ?
If you want to get rid of "CD glare", that's my suggestion.

I’d think any “glare” is well below 12kHz, more likely around 4K-6kHz. I’m not convinced glare even exists, but in my experience when treble bothers me it’s in too much in this range, or too much distortion in this range.
 
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daftcombo

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I’d think any “glare” is well below 12kHz, more likely around 4K-6kHz. I’m not convinced glare even exists, but in my experience when treble bothers me it’s in too much in this range, or two much distortion in this range.
A few days ago, I was annoyed by harshness caused by cymbals, which are in the range you say. I tried that low-pass at 12kHz and the harshness was gone. So I guess it was more about the harmonics of the tones in the 4-6 kHz range.
It was only on one pair of speakers, I wouldn't generalize. But if you have that kind of issue, why not try?
 

Dogen

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A few days ago, I was annoyed by harshness caused by cymbals, which are in the range you say. I tried that low-pass at 12kHz and the harshness was gone. So I guess it was more about the harmonics of the tones in the 4-6 kHz range.
It was only on one pair of speakers, I wouldn't generalize. But if you have that kind of issue, why not try?

I’m all for experimenting and trying things out; I’m really glad it improved your sound and you shared your experience! It might just be semantics, but glare implies to me an unwanted intensity in the upper midrange/lower treble. Sounds like you had an issue higher up.
 

egellings

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I bought an early CD player many years ago, and that thing did make a violin sound like it was strung with piano wire and bowed with a hacksaw. A modern day player I have now that uses the Sabre 32 DAC sounds excellent, without a hint of glare, which I would describe as a raspy, forward upper mid to treble sound.
 

Robin L

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The issue of digital "Glare" has been around about as long as "digital" and the reason is obvious. Analog tape's "soft compression" compresses the top and bottom first, so that the sound of deliberately compressed treble was the norm before it wasn't. Thus the "warm" sound of pre-digital recordings. As regards modern gear, it's a long way from 1984; what sounded stark and un-natural then has moved closer to the norm, producers and engineers now default to digital recording/payback. If they want deliberately compressed treble, they know how to get it.
 

Inner Space

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... the sound of deliberately compressed treble was the norm before it wasn't.

True, as I recall. The introduction of a new source with a new power response was often noticed on systems optimized for old sources with familiar power responses. But good-faith attempts to explain and quantify the phenomenon are wasted. "Glare" as a negative notion was immediately introduced by maverick UK turntable gurus in the audio press as a (retrospectively lame and obvious) way of preserving the status they craved.

I remember coverage by two writers from a particular magazine, of a CD launch event in 1982. Their punchline was, after the first track was played, "We just looked at each other and laughed." It was desperately important to them that CD should fail, so that their arcane opinions about obscure Japanese moving-coil cartridges and platter mats and so on would be as breathlessly received going forward as they had been for the last five years. So they desperately needed an objection, and were prepared to invent one if necessary.

Suppose for a moment the new power response had been noticeable mostly in the mid-bass. Those guys would have invented a different word. We would have spent the last forty years talking about "digital boom".
 

Blumlein 88

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I remember an oft heard complaint about Shure Mk V cartridges were they lacked the fine detail of moving coils and had tape like highs. The Shurve V's had exemplary response vs most cartridges back then. Since reel tape was the source of music on LP why would it not have tape-like highs?
 

raindance

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A few days ago, I was annoyed by harshness caused by cymbals, which are in the range you say. I tried that low-pass at 12kHz and the harshness was gone. So I guess it was more about the harmonics of the tones in the 4-6 kHz range.
It was only on one pair of speakers, I wouldn't generalize. But if you have that kind of issue, why not try?
Sounds like you were hearing either compression artifacts or the effect of too-loud mastering. Both cause a "raggedness" in the sound of cymbals that I find obnoxious.
 

Senior NEET Engineer

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A lot of older music is mixed with warm sounding analog equipment or rooms. If you try to reproduce with a "neutral" playback system, you might hear some of that "digital glare". This is where tone controls come in.
 

tuga

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Way back, let's say the eighties, when an ‘outsider’ listened to studio sound, a very common remark was how ‘harsh’ it seemed. We put this down to the fact that John Doe was not used to listening to a reasonably clean top-end that had been neither mangled by the vinyl production process nor heavily attenuated by the performance of cassette tape >6 or 7kHz.

I would definitely not equate "harsh" sound to a "clean top-end", quite the opposite. Causes may be tweeters or more likely electronics.
 

Robin L

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I would definitely not equate "harsh" sound to a "clean top-end", quite the opposite. Causes may be tweeters or more likely electronics.
The issue is not so much the "clean" top end. It's that, relative to previous expectations, there is so much more top end.
 

tuga

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The issue is not so much the "clean" top end. It's that, relative to previous expectations, there is so much more top end.

In that case the sound is "bright-er" and perhaps "airy-er" (tonal balance issue), not "harsh" (other types of distortion).
 
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Robin L

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In that case the sound is "bright-er" and perhaps "airy-er" (tonal balance issue), not "harsh" (other types of distortion).
It's also harder and harsher, here's a good example from another thread on the same topic. Clean, but too bright and with an excess of treble. 1985, so an example of early digital. Often it's due to using a technique that worked with analog, the primary variable being digital recording:

 
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