Fixed that for ya. The production of any vehicle will have emissions, and it is possible to dramatically reduce the emissions of the electric grids. And even if everything stayed the same, fossil fuel extraction, refining, and transport is very likely worse than even coal-powered electricity.
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What does it take to succesfully transition to a green energy economy?
- Thread starter Marc v E
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JayGilb
Major Contributor
Wind energy is slowly starting to creep into West-Central Wisconsin where I live. My son has about 120 acres on beautiful rolling hills where there is a natural focusing of wind energy due to a large valley which narrows on his property. A wind energy company posted a pamphlet on his door asking to contact them about the possibility of building several windmills on his property. He invited them over and it sounded interesting until he started to read their contract and soon realized that he was essentially signing his right to use the land adjacent to the windmills away. The contract had stipulations where he would have to contact them to get permission to graze his cattle outside of the fenced in area near the windmills as well as many other conditions where they had legal power to stop any changes he could make to his property and many others that gave them almost unlimited power to use his land as they saw fit. He did additional research and contacted other land owners who told them of their regrets in signing a contract with this and other companies specializing in wind generation.
Noske
Member
Isn't that an interesting example of manipulating private property law.
What your son could do is to make counter offer for them to lease his land at a suitably exorbitant price per acre. On his terms. Get a lawyer, son, get a real good one.
Edit - because I think that what the company is demanding is a right of easement, which yu may google, amongst other rights which you have conveyed. To grant such a right is in general unwise due to many issues.
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JayGilb
Major Contributor
Unfortunately, there are many failing family farms in our area desperate for additional income that would or have already signed a contract.
Corporate dairy farms have driven most family based diary farms in Wisconsin under and it's getting worse with each passing year.
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Marc v E
Major Contributor
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- #285
Thank you for sharing this. In the Netherlands farmers have windmills that they own themselves as far as I know. The same applies to solar panels. They have a contract with an electricity provider that sells their generated electricity to consumers. They are not bound by one provider but can choose many. Only the grid is owned by in total 3 companies that charge a fixed fee. Seems a very different implementation than what your son was offered.
I think this links to what Tony Seba meant, when he said that what we needed most is the right for consumers to generate electricity.
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Like I said we can have reduced emissions vehicles but there will NEVER be a "zero emission vehicle" even "tire dust" is an emission / form of pollution. The problem I see with the term "zero emission vehicle" is not just semantics but that it is misleading especially for people who don't think through the whole chain of emissions and assume that EV's instantly solve all problems.
EVs will only be clean if the energy they use is clean, although even with dirty electricity they may improve things locally in densely inhabited urban areas.
But by and large what is needed is much more sustainable energy. That is happening rapidly in my country, even though the trajectory is not without its problems.
But by and large what is needed is much more sustainable energy. That is happening rapidly in my country, even though the trajectory is not without its problems.
While I agree with you in principle, IMO you're just being difficult. Everyone knows when people say "zero emissions" they're referring to having a tailpipe or not.
I can't say for sure how common it is but some people I know with EV's really believe that they are "zero emissions". They are not dumb people just not technical people.
I have encountered many such people, though admittedly I work at a private liberal arts university which draws that demographic.
"Zero emissions" simple means "we pollute other places, just not my neighborhood." It is the equivalent of eating nice packaged meat from the grocer rather than having the slaughterhouse and feedlots next door.
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Marc v E
Major Contributor
- Thread Starter
- #291
Catl shared today they have a 500 Wh/kg battery. It looks like we entered the age of electric planes. The batteries go into production this year.
What I found quite interesting is that they look at transforming their core business by 2025 to zero emissions and their whole value chain by 2035.
www.electrive.com
What I found quite interesting is that they look at transforming their core business by 2025 to zero emissions and their whole value chain by 2035.
CATL launches ultra-high energy ‘Condensed Battery’ | electrive.com
www.electrive.com
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It means zero emissions at the tailpipe.
RandomEar
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Catl shared today they have a 500 Wh/kg battery. It looks like we entered the age of electric planes. The batteries go into production this year.
What I found quite interesting is that they look at transforming their core business by 2025 to zero emissions and their whole value chain by 2035.
CATL launches ultra-high energy ‘Condensed Battery’ | electrive.com
Yeah. Things are really taking off. I think many people underestimate the technological advancements that were made in the last 10-15 years alone. A plot to get a better grip on this:
This is compiled from 1, 2 and recent announcements by CATL. Plot shows cell energy density - density for the pack is lower, of course. Some data points were removed to clean up the plot.
Keith_W
Major Contributor
Very interesting! I wonder what this will do to the second-hand prices of current EV's, when every new generation of EV's that comes out has these newer generation batteries, meaning either longer range or lighter weight.
This is one reason I haven't bought into EV's, I suspected that EV's right now are still on an upward trajectory in technology, just like Moore's Law was applicable to early generation computers, or early fighter aircraft and battleships in the late 19th Century. For those not well versed in military history, new aircraft in the 1940's and 50's became obsolete almost as soon as they were rolled out because rapid advancements in anti-air technology forced a rethink of strategy. It is the same with battleships in the late 19th century, where sail gave way to paddle steamers, then to screw driven steamers, and then to ICE engines.
Maybe wait a few years and EV's will massively drop down in price and increase in performance.
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Marc v E
Major Contributor
- Thread Starter
- #297
I think you have a point. However, ime second hand prices do not correlate with advancements in technology; a lower price of the new vehicle does. I think the price of the model 3 base trim will certainly lower to 36.000 and possibly over 3 years go as low as 30.000. I don't think it will be much cheaper due to the smaller upcoming model rumoured to be 25.000.
Imo some brands are already technically mature. It mainly depends on if they designed the car as an ev from the ground up (not based on an ice car platform). And the thermal management system needs to be good; you notice this in the ability to charge rapidly. It also ensures long battery life. If you watch Munro or Bjorn Nydahl on youtube you can easily see which ones are the top pick.
The rest imo is just a matter of preference and needs.
Btw, I too am waiting for about 2 years to buy an ev. Current evs imo are already way better than their ice equivalents, but our current car still has a few years to go.
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Our ICE car still has some 5-10 years of remaining life expectancy, so we are not in a hurry. If by then technology has not matured enough we may lease an EV, or maybe decide not to have a private car at all. Cars are just about the worst investment after all. In the Dutch car market new cars are mostly company cars and those are increasingly electric. Private consumers mostly buy second hand cars.
We decided that spending our money on home insulation and a heat pump for heating was both financially more attractive and better for the environment.
We decided that spending our money on home insulation and a heat pump for heating was both financially more attractive and better for the environment.
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The economic challenge in a market economy is simple: increase the price elasticities of both supply and demand. Long distance trade provides spatial equalization by connecting markets with different prices and dynamic pricing provides temporal equalization.
KSTR
Major Contributor
This!
Sadly, not owning a private car has stringent pre-requisites:
- the proper mindset to begin with
- a well-developed and affordable public transport system
- good infrastructure for (e-)bicycles plus sharing systems for them as well, notably for cargo bikes
- proper alternatives like car-sharing for the occasional required 4-wheel transport
These points are going to be met more and more in many larger and smaller cities and even in rural areas in Europe and some parts of Asia.
In the USA you'll be mostly out of luck, though. Compare the possibilities you have in, say, Rotterdam/Netherlands, to what you will find in Omaha/Nebraska (about the same size of cities, in order of magnitudes)...
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