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What does it take to succesfully transition to a green energy economy?

JktHifi

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Our ICE car still has some 5-10 years of remaining life expectancy, so we are not in a hurry. If by then technology has not matured enough we may lease an EV, or maybe decide not to have a private car at all. Cars are just about the worst investment after all. In the Dutch car market new cars are mostly company cars and those are increasingly electric. Private consumers mostly buy second hand cars.
We decided that spending our money on home insulation and a heat pump for heating was both financially more attractive and better for the environment.
Having private car is about enjoying music on the ride.
Sometimes music on the fast lane give so much colors. Especially when you turn at the corner with big torque car. You can follow the music beat by pressing the gas pedal.
But that was happening on my early life. Now I don‘t have the guts anymore. So, enjoy if you still young.
 
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Blumlein 88

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Having private car is about enjoying music on the ride.
Sometimes music on the fast lane give so much colors. Especially when you turn at the corner with big torque car. You can follow the music beat by pressing the gas pedal.
But that was happening on my early life. Now I don‘t have the guts anymore. So, enjoy if you still young.
Are those colors mostly flashing red and blue?
 

Willem

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Sadly, not owning a private car has stringent pre-requisites
Indeed. We live in Groningen in the Netherlands, a compact medium size town with 200k inhabitants. We bought a house on the edge of town that is still only 15 minutes cycling from of our work at the university in the city centre (15 minutes), and 10 minutes cycling from the main railway station (and 5 minutes from a smaller one), with intercity trains to the rest of the country every 30 minutes (and local trains even more often). The house was quite a bit more expensive than in the surrounding villages, but for years we even managed without a car. The money saved by not having a car allowed us to buy a really nice but very expensive house. I think it was a smart trade off. Our children also loved that they could go out drinking in the evenings without any complex logistics. Cycling infrastructure is excellent: there is a 'bicyle highway' in front of our house that brings people from the villages right into the city. We do nearly all our shopping by bicycle, and if we need a lot such as when we are having a big party we use the car that we still own. That car is in fact mostly a shared family ride with our children who also still live in town, and sometimes borrow it, to haul big things or sometimes for their holidays.
The new Dutch intercity trains to be introduced this year will run at 200km/h, so for many journeys they will be faster than cars. For local transport at our destinations we have a Brompton folding bike.
As for the joys of driving: I think it is boring and just about as stupid a way to spend your time as possible.
 

JktHifi

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Are those colors mostly flashing red and blue?
Can’t define it. Probably blue when accelerate and red when brake, etc. I feel different color when deep turn corner, my body pressed to the back seat. So much more. But it’s the music that give the color.
And the sound from the muffler also helpful. No sound from EV, right?
 
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Willem

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In the USA you'll be mostly out of luck, though.
I lived there. In Chapel Hill NC it was impossible to survive without a car. Next time I had a sabbatical it was in Princeton, and I negotiated for an appartment within walking distance of the department. That worked fine, but since then the small supermarket where I was buying my food has closed, so I am not sure how I could manage there now. Last time was at the IAS in Princeton, where there is a van service to take you into town, and to a shopping mall. In fact, the only way to get there is by taking the Interstate, so cycling would be impossible. Recreational cycling was fine, however.
 

symphara

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Current evs imo are already way better than their ice equivalents, but our current car still has a few years to go.
I'll never understand why people make these clearly false, unsubstantiated blanket statements.

EVs are much worse than ICE cars at two essential things: range, and charge time. I can "charge" an ICE vehicle, from 0% to 100%, in about one minute. It's easy to get a 500 miles range in an ICE vehicle. I recently drove a VW Passat that had a range of over 1000km (621miles).

Worse, those two things have a horrible synergy, making an EV a pain in the *** for long distance travel.

Then, compared to ICE cars, there are other small issues where EVs do worse: greater weight, substantial difference in behaviour between normal and very cold weather, higher susceptibility to fire (due to an impact or even spontaneous).

@OP if you want a green energy economy, you need lots of nuclear power plants. Lots and lots. You can paint them green, too.
 
OP
Marc v E

Marc v E

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I'll never understand why people make these clearly false, unsubstantiated blanket statements.

EVs are much worse than ICE cars at two essential things: range, and charge time. I can "charge" an ICE vehicle, from 0% to 100%, in about one minute. It's easy to get a 500 miles range in an ICE vehicle. I recently drove a VW Passat that had a range of over 1000km (621miles).

Worse, those two things have a horrible synergy, making an EV a pain in the *** for long distance travel.

Then, compared to ICE cars, there are other small issues where EVs do worse: greater weight, substantial difference in behaviour between normal and very cold weather, higher susceptibility to fire (due to an impact or even spontaneous).

@OP if you want a green energy economy, you need lots of nuclear power plants. Lots and lots. You can paint them green, too.
It's quite easy to understand if you have the right circumstances.

I live about 15 kilometers from work; most people live within a max distance of 50 kms. The max distance I travel is about 200 kms one way to my family. When I go on holiday I rent a car.

The max distance that a model 3 or model y long range travels is more than 200 kms. So much more in fact that even in the worst winter conditions I'll get to my destination.

Here we charge evs mostly at home overnight. No waiting time at all. In fact I would probably save time by not having to go to the gas station.
 

symphara

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It's quite easy to understand if you have the right circumstances.
Yeah but you didn't say "right circumstances" before. You just made a blanket statement that's easy to disprove.
 

Willem

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@symphara No need to be this agressive.
EVs have advantages and disadvantages (surprise surprise).
Some of the advantages are a quiet ride, smooth high torque power delivery that reminds you of a big V8, lower maintenance complexity, clean air.
Range is obviously an issue, but less and less so. What surprises me in this respect is that so many EVs are in the SUV style. Range is really only a problem on long distance Highway drives at speed. Unfortunately range deteriorates a lot when you are driving faster, so the most aerodynamic design wins out on this crucial parameter. Square boxes do not do well in this respect. A good example of the benefits can be seen with the sleek Hyundai Ioniq 6.
Modern EVs like the recent Hyundais can be charged in some 15-20 minutes at suitably equipped charging stations. That is fine with me for a bathroom stop, maybe a cup of coffee or a sandwich, and some time to stretch my legs.
I take it a 1000 km range with a Volkswage Passat was with a Diesel engined one?
 
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Marc v E

Marc v E

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@symphara I'm genuinly enthousiastic about what I experienced when I sat in an ev. And I do think it's a lot better than most of the ice cars I sat in. I'm just giving an example that makes what I said easy to understand. Ymmv. I don't mind if you like ice cars better.
 

symphara

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@symphara No need to be this agressive.
EVs have advantages and disadvantages (surprise surprise).
Some of the advantages are a quiet ride, smooth high torque power delivery that reminds you of a big V8, lower maintenance complexity, clean air.
Range is obviously an issue, but less and less so. What surprises me in this respect is that so many EVs are in the SUV style. Range is really only a problem on long distance Highway drives at speed. Unfortunately range deteriorates a lot when you are driving faster, so the most aerodynamic design wins out on this crucial parameter. Square boxes do not do well in this respect. A good example of the benefits can be seen with the sleek Hyundai Ioniq 6.
I wasn't aggressive, just factual.

If I made a blanket statement such as "a BMW M2 is a much better car than a minivan", thinking only of my personal driving enjoyment, it would only be fair for a member to point out that for going on holidays with kids and lots of luggage (hardly a far fetched use case) it's not.

Sure, EVs have their advantages and I'm not disputing that. If they were "way better" compared to ICEs I'd be out the door to change my cars. Alas, they're not.
 

symphara

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Ymmv. I don't mind if you like ice cars better.
I don't like ICE cars "better". If that's what you understood, there's little else I can say.
 

JktHifi

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Probably motorbikes such as scooter that has tank capacity only 3 liters is the best vehicle to be electrified with battery because shorter charging time. And wasting time to go to gas station for only 3 liters, right?
 

Gorgonzola

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I'll never understand why people make these clearly false, unsubstantiated blanket statements.

EVs are much worse than ICE cars at two essential things: range, and charge time. I can "charge" an ICE vehicle, from 0% to 100%, in about one minute. It's easy to get a 500 miles range in an ICE vehicle. I recently drove a VW Passat that had a range of over 1000km (621miles).

Worse, those two things have a horrible synergy, making an EV a pain in the *** for long distance travel.

Then, compared to ICE cars, there are other small issues where EVs do worse: greater weight, substantial difference in behaviour between normal and very cold weather, higher susceptibility to fire (due to an impact or even spontaneous).

@OP if you want a green energy economy, you need lots of nuclear power plants. Lots and lots. You can paint them green, too.
@symphara, sorry but you're simply repeating the clichéd anti-EV chant -- this is not to say that these comments are untrue, only that they are increasingly irrelevant and obscure the real EV benefits.

EV ranges are increasing incrementally and, anyway, current ranges already satisfy the needs of most drivers almost all the time. We drive two cars at our place and either or both could be EVs with no problems of range or charge time. In fact most EVs are charged at the owners' homes overnight -- thus equating to virtually zero charge time and much less time overall than spent driving to and filling at gasoline stations.

The extra weight of EVs is essentially irrelevant given their fuel cost vs. gasoline (or diesel) fuel, and their on-road performance. Maintenance costs are lower than for ICE vehicles even considering the long-term cost of battery replacement. Driving differences are easily mastered and have nowhere been reported as a significant issue.

The issue finding convenient charging stations while traveling is becoming very easy in all but the most remote locations -- and the prevalence of charging stations will only become less of a problem with more EVs on the roads.

Yes, some power grids will have to be improved but it's far from an insurmountable problem in terms of cost, location, funding, or regulations. Generally, no new locations or rights-of-way are going to be need for power lines or distribution infrastructure. Where I live, Ontario, Canada, over 90% of electricity is produced by non-greenhouse producing methods.

Ontario Electricity generation by fuel type, 2019 ...

on-fg02.png
 

symphara

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@symphara, sorry but you're simply repeating the clichéd anti-EV chant -- this is not to say that these comments are untrue, only that they are increasingly irrelevant and obscure the real EV benefits.

EV ranges are increasing incrementally and, anyway, current ranges already satisfy the needs of most drivers almost all the time. We drive two cars at our place and either or both could be EVs with no problems of range or charge time. In fact most EVs are charged at the owners' homes overnight -- thus equating to virtually zero charge time and much less time overall than spent driving to and filling at gasoline stations.

The extra weight of EVs is essentially irrelevant given their fuel cost vs. gasoline (or diesel) fuel, and their on-road performance. Maintenance costs are lower than for ICE vehicles even considering the long-term cost of battery replacement. Driving differences are easily mastered and have nowhere been reported as a significant issue.

The issue finding convenient charging stations while traveling is becoming very easy in all but the most remote locations -- and the prevalence of charging stations will only become less of a problem with more EVs on the roads.

Yes, some power grids will have to be improved but it's far from an insurmountable problem in terms of cost, location, funding, or regulations. Generally, no new locations or rights-of-way are going to be need for power lines or distribution infrastructure. Where I live, Ontario, Canada, over 90% of electricity is produced by non-greenhouse producing methods.

Ontario Electricity generation by fuel type, 2019 ...

on-fg02.png
You have to make up your mind. It's either an "anti-EV chant" or a factually true statement, it cannot be both.

I will amend my "chant" to add an extra issue: fast charging is done only to 80%. So you have a trifecta of short range, long charging time, and up to 80%. Good luck finding a free charger on the motorway, remembering that for an ICE car a queue of 2-3 cars means extra minutes. For EV, it's extra hours.

Second, reading your non-sequitur post, I notice that most things you list are wishes, or set in the future. Range will improve. Charging time will reduce. There will be more charging stations. Etc. Yes, maybe, let's hope so. But right now - mind you, I live in Switzerland, one of the richest countries in Europe and the world in general - the situation is that average EV range is very poor, charging time is too long to make EVs really usable outside commute or short-trip range, and the charger situation also quite poor. Drive to Eastern Europe and your EV might as well run on dilithium crystals.

I will note that in my little town there were two locations with one public charger each, which the local council closed down immediately after the war started and the electricity price jumped. The closest commercially operated fast charger to me has a price of CHF0.65/kWh. Ionity charges the same, to the best of my knowledge. This is close to petrol/diesel prices, per km.

Everybody I know with EVs here also has an ICE backup car, for longer distance trips.

Since I bought a new car last year, I looked very carefully into EVs. I really like some EVs, particularly the Audi e-tron GT. Alas, EVs don't cut the mustard for us right now due to their short range. I sometimes have to drive >2000km and I cannot make that a week long trip just to accommodate the car. I have young kids. I cannot drive to Italy or Austria, though heavy traffic, worrying that I'll be stranded on a motorway. I cannot wait for hours to charge the car, in a petrol station. It's unacceptable.

Everyone I know with an EV also has an ICE backup car, for longer distances.

I got a plug-in hybrid, which we use a lot in EV mode, since a lot of our driving is done close to home, so I know all about your assertions in respect to plugging it in at home. And you're wrong on that too. It takes about 30 seconds to plug and unplug, and we do this on average twice a day. That's 30 minutes per month. We do not come ahead, time wise, compared to filling up in a petrol station. It's just diluted time rather than concentrated, which gives you the wrong impression.
 

SIY

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Yeah but you didn't say "right circumstances" before. You just made a blanket statement that's easy to disprove.
This is why I mentioned use cases before. For me, an EV just won't fly even if I could afford one.
 

symphara

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This is why I mentioned use cases before. For me, an EV just won't fly even if I could afford one.
I can afford a really nice one but I have limited garage space and it fails to win one of the existing spots.
And if I had one more spot in the garage, it still wouldn't make it, because there's another ICE car I would buy first. Maybe if I had two, I could slot in that e-tron GT unless my wife makes a strong push for that Saga Norén 911 she's been pining for.
 

Gorgonzola

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You have to make up your mind. It's either an "anti-EV chant" or a factually true statement, it cannot be both.

I will amend my "chant" to add an extra issue: fast charging is done only to 80%. So you have a trifecta of short range, long charging time, and up to 80%. Good luck finding a free charger on the motorway, remembering that for an ICE car a queue of 2-3 cars means extra minutes. For EV, it's extra hours.

Second, reading your non-sequitur post, I notice that most things you list are wishes, or set in the future. Range will improve. Charging time will reduce. There will be more charging stations. Etc. Yes, maybe, let's hope so. But right now - mind you, I live in Switzerland, one of the richest countries in Europe and the world in general - the situation is that average EV range is very poor, charging time is too long to make EVs really usable outside commute or short-trip range, and the charger situation also quite poor. Drive to Eastern Europe and your EV might as well run on dilithium crystals.

I will note that in my little town there were two locations with one public charger each, which the local council closed down immediately after the war started and the electricity price jumped. The closest commercially operated fast charger to me has a price of CHF0.65/kWh. Ionity charges the same, to the best of my knowledge. This is close to petrol/diesel prices, per km.

Everybody I know with EVs here also has an ICE backup car, for longer distance trips.

Since I bought a new car last year, I looked very carefully into EVs. I really like some EVs, particularly the Audi e-tron GT. Alas, EVs don't cut the mustard for us right now due to their short range. I sometimes have to drive >2000km and I cannot make that a week long trip just to accommodate the car. I have young kids. I cannot drive to Italy or Austria, though heavy traffic, worrying that I'll be stranded on a motorway. I cannot wait for hours to charge the car, in a petrol station. It's unacceptable.

Everyone I know with an EV also has an ICE backup car, for longer distances.

I got a plug-in hybrid, which we use a lot in EV mode, since a lot of our driving is done close to home, so I know all about your assertions in respect to plugging it in at home. And you're wrong on that too. It takes about 30 seconds to plug and unplug, and we do this on average twice a day. That's 30 minutes per month. We do not come ahead, time wise, compared to filling up in a petrol station. It's just diluted time rather than concentrated, which gives you the wrong impression.

I won't rehash either yours or my previous discussion. I'll allow there are places and applications where EVs will never be feasible. Other than that, I'll only say that I spend considerably more than 30 minutes a month time brushing my teeth.

I wasn't clear so I'll now make clear that neither of our household vehicles are EV's. Both are ICE and neither will be replaced for 2-3 years. My main obstacle to a EV purchase is the price and that might well still be the case when I need to replace a vehicle that far down the road.
 
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symphara

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I won't rehash either yours or mine previous discussion, except to say I spend considerably more time brushing my teeth than 30 minutes a month.
Me too, but the comparison wasn't brushing teeth vs pluging in and out an EV, was it? I was always surprised at people praising the lack of having to go to a petrol station. That's something I do maybe 3x a month with an ICE and it takes 5 minutes, and it's not out of my way. Charging an EV is death by a thousand cuts by comparison. I can't wait for some kind of wireless standard.

Other than that, you mention "free" recharging stations. There is no reason why recharging stations must or ought to be free. It is perfectly reasonable that we ought to pay for charging. It's easy to add a credit card reader to a charging station at virtually any location and in my observation it's already the usual situation.
Nobody said they should be free. I was merely describing our situation. We're lucky that we can charge from home, even as the investment for that was fairly large (it cost us 1.4k for the wiring/connectivity and meter, without the charging controller itself which came with the car - yeah, Swiss prices). Charging outside the home is much more troublesome and expensive than what we pay for electricity at home.

Your idea with the credit card is great, but so far I've not seen anyone doing it, everyone wants apps or QR codes or physical cards with accounts and whatnot. I personally have a few cards (ZVolt, TCS, Move etc) and you can rarely tell what's going to work and what's not, with a specific charger.
 

Willem

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Let's not forget that ICE vs EV cars are a small part of the transition. Industrial energy consumption is way more important, and so is probably heating.
 
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