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What do you think about Klipsch and other high efficiency speakers?

anmpr1

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That's a lot of info there. From the last graph it appears that for the tones tested it stays under 1% even at 105 SPL, which sounds impressive. But 1986 was a long time ago, and I assume both speakers technology and measuring techniques has improved since then, so I don't know how much this reflects on the current status of horn speakers.
The current K-horn is not the same speaker that Heyser took apart. Same basic form, but they've done something to the bass enclosure, and changed out mid and high frequency drivers. How it compares?, I don't know. I'm not near a dealer who stocks them, and in any case you really need to listen to these in your living room. So I'll give them the benefit of the doubt, saying they've made them better in certain respects. They certainly didn't make them cheaper to own.
 

MZKM

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Magnepan LRS:
View attachment 36534

And yet, I still kinda want a pair of them. :facepalm:
To use a transitional speaker as an example of poor directivity control:
$5000 Spendor A7:
1571591901557.jpeg

This is why you don’t cross a 7.1” woofer with a 3/4” tweeter unless using waveguides and/or phase plugs; the larger the woofer, the more directional it becomes at the top of its operating range; the smaller the tweeter, the less directional it becomes at the bottom of its operating range.
Also, for a 3/4” tweeter, it’s beaming pretty heavily >9kHz, most 1” tweeters are better, maybe the metal faceplate is interfering.

EDIT: Even better (worse), the $33,000 Nola Metro Grand Reference Gold:
1571593272301.jpeg
 
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Sal1950

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The current K-horn is not the same speaker that Heyser took apart. Same basic form, but they've done something to the bass enclosure, and changed out mid and high frequency drivers. How it compares?, I don't know. I'm not near a dealer who stocks them, and in any case you really need to listen to these in your living room. So I'll give them the benefit of the doubt, saying they've made them better in certain respects. They certainly didn't make them cheaper to own.
I always thought the Scala's the better speaker do to the ablity to place them where you wanted for best imaging. K-Horns are very limiting in placement, even the new model still needs corner placement, they just don't have to be "sealed" in as I understand it. I'd like to see a side by side measurement of the low bass range for the new and old designs. In any case none offers deep bass response and requires subwoofers to get below 40 hz.
 

felizecat

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I think this is all about mix'n'match. I used to have recommended systems such as Tannoy's Mercury MkI with a Toshiba amp, Rotel amp and Dynaudio 2-ways, Quad 77 and Totem model one signature and none satisfied me enough. I went the DIY route and built Fostex Full Range (based on 206 ES-R) at 98 dB/W(m) fed through by a SEX amp from Bottlehead; this has been the root of my system for the last 15 years and I am still very happy.

Anecdote: a friend of mine asked me to listen to some Symphonic Orchestra and asked what I thought of the Timbals. I said, "What Timbals?". He brought a sub about as big as a mini fridge and then I heard the Timbals. So I build a sub too. I don't think I am missing that much anymore.

I guess in my case, the building of my system created a different type of engagement; I am not running around listening to other systems with the hope of getting better or best. I know what I got and I know I can tweak if needed. Friends visiting are always amazed as to how it sounds, and they can be quite critical. Not saying it is the best possible; sure, there is always better somewhere or in accordance of our moods. But I am satisfied.
 

peanuts

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i got constant directivity speakers, measures flat on-axis and polar response like this
http://gainphile.blogspot.com/2010/11/s15-econowave-dsp.html
s15dsp%2Bnormalised.png

and i got these cornscala DIY cornwall speakers from crites speakers:
kristennylend_med.jpeg


yet they both sound like colored ass compared to tiny linkwitz lxmini. they have very little directivity control, and are more omni in comparison. but still so much more natural and musical... btw lx521 are the best speakers iv listened to at home.

LXmini-Madisound%20Pair%20Black.jpg
 

watchnerd

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I've been curious to hear a pair of big Tannoy speakers, like the Arden:

ARDEN_P0DEN_No-Grille_B_large.png


93 dB, so not super duper sensitive, but above average.
 

digicidal

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Do high sensitivity speakers offer lower distortion at high SPL?

I've heard some Magnepans at a show, and yeah they sound impressive (for the few mintues I heard them anyway…). Could there be an advantage to speakers with more directivity? They would interact less with the room, wouldn't they?

To the first question: likely but way too generalized to make a distinction. They are far less likely to be overdriven simply because they will become painfully loud sooner in most cases... however, the components used will have more to do with this than whether the design is using horns. I'd also say that for many, if you are sensitive to higher frequency distortions... they very well might have more distortion at high SPL than another design.

To the second question: Possibly. Although again in a lop-sided fashion. Since the room is only a major factor in the lower frequencies, which are inherently less directional by nature - it's the mids and highs that will be most affected. With the Maggies (and most other planar designs I think) they're fantastic if you have a single listening position and enough room for them. If you want to move around the room while listening - definitely not the best choice.

For that matter, if you like much bass at all, or high SPL - they're not a very good choice (even if you're seated).
 
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Ilkless

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It frustrates me to no end that a modern, optimised low-diffraction waveguide like the Geddes oblate spheroid or SEOS waveguides are almost impossible to find sold retail as a complete high-sensitivity speaker. All I can find is one series of SEOS speakers by Horns.PL, the speaker manufacturer offshoot of AutoTech, which manufactures fibreglass waveguides. Their designs don't live up to the waveguide's potential based on independent measurements from Germany. And it seems pretty much all SEOS designs with higher-performance woofers like Acoustic Elegance are one-off DIY designs with limited documentation.

What's the point of all this evidence-based innovation (that can be implemented already) if it's inaccessible to the consumer?
 

watchnerd

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What's the point of all this evidence-based innovation (that can be implemented already) if it's inaccessible to the consumer?

I thought there were still genuine differences of opinion / schools of thought on how best to do directivity control and how much to optimize for it vs other factors?
 

digicidal

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What's the point of all this evidence-based innovation (that can be implemented already) if it's inaccessible to the consumer?
In many cases, it simply revolves around what's more profitable. Right now, there's far more demand for simple sound appliances which mimic directivity control through DSP (sound pods, BT portables, sound bars, etc.) than hifi/HT applications based on physical control guides built in.

I'd expect to see most of the newer innovations appear in the pro-scene before the consumer market.
 

Ilkless

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I thought there were still genuine differences of opinion / schools of thought on how best to do directivity control and how much to optimize for it vs other factors?

Yeah there is, but there are shades of better in waveguides when it comes to the diffraction/other distortions introduced vs the dispersion pattern vs how linear response is within the intended dispersion pattern (how little change off-axis) vs the amount of loading for the driver, among other factors. Generally well-designed home audio waveguides have leaned toward having a smooth, blended geometry to minimise diffraction and higher-order modes (according to Geddes). But even those modern waveguides (especially the SEOS) are still impossible to find in complete speakers.
 

watchnerd

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Yeah there is, but there are shades of better in waveguides when it comes to the diffraction/other distortions introduced vs the dispersion pattern vs how linear response is within the intended dispersion pattern (how little change off-axis) vs the amount of loading for the driver, among other factors. Generally well-designed home audio waveguides have leaned toward having a smooth, blended geometry to minimise diffraction and higher-order modes (according to Geddes). But even those modern waveguides (especially the SEOS) are still impossible to find in complete speakers.

So are you saying the waveguides in the new Revel Performa Be series (less than a year) aren't up to the job?

Or are they solving the problem differently?

They are from the House of Toole and Olive, so it's not like they're ignorant....
 

Ilkless

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So are you saying the waveguides in the new Revel Performa Be series (less than a year) aren't up to the job?

Or are they solving the problem differently?

They are from the House of Toole and Olive, so it's not like they're ignorant....

I'd say their methodology is quite similar, but the scale and the drivers used are different. Both adopt a very smooth geometry such that the off-axis response closely mimics the on-axis/listening axis and matches the drivers that are low-passed to cross with it. It is just that the OS/SEOS waveguides are designed for much large CtC spacing and depth to load compression drivers for higher SPL rather than direct-radiating domes and the curvature is adjusted for that. But the methodology appears similar.

I suppose my comment was with reference to large low-diffraction smooth waveguides for high-SPL use and directivity control to lower frequencies, rather than with dome tweeters, which have become increasingly common.

What seems genuinely different and no less legitimate in terms of directivity control is the M2/LSR approach (the Imaging Control waveguide), which embraces clever smearing of diffraction rather than really eliminating it. I've spoken to Charles Sprinkle about it here and here is his reply:

The Image Control waveguide on the M2s actually had defined coverage and smooth response in the oblique planes. Because the waveguide needs an expanding cross sectional area, the "knuckles" were used on the horizontal and vertical planes to move the upper pattern control frequency higher, but the obliques could not. as a result, the upper pattern control frequency in the oblique planes was significantly lower. this could potentially affect perceived timbre. The solution, of course, would be to have a compression driver with a 1" exit, at the expense of higher distortion from the non-linearity of air at higher SPL.

A well designed diffraction waveguide should not impart sonic coloration if the diffraction feature is blended to smear the reflection in time. This actually reduces the reflection back down the throat and associated frequency response (and impulse response) anomalies.

I'm not aware of any controlled experiments with subjective analysis on this. From my own experience, I have not been able to hear artifacts from blended diffraction features so long as the impulse response and frequency response are good.

In a reply to another poster, he had said:

The Image Control waveguide was designed to provide individual control of vertical and horizontal coverage and lower pattern control frequency. It was also constant directivity. The Kali waveguide has an elliptical waveguide with a sound power that drops at about 1dB per octave. This creates less of an inflection in the soundpower than a constant directivity waveguide and in our opinion sounds more neutral. By controlling the spacing of the transducers and vertical pattern, we were able to optimize system integration.

The woofer has a soundpower that is esentially the same as the on-axis response at low frequencies. It falls off at higher frequencies as the system becomes more directional. If the HF is constant directivity, this puts an inflection in the soundpower at the crossover point. Both HF and LF could have a smooth response, but there is still an inflection. This can affect perceived timbre. By having a controlled directivity waveguide with a small soundpower slope, we can minimixe the inflection in the sound power and in-room response.

My own take is that directivity index should be smooth, the polars should be smooth, but the exact pattern - wide/narrow, narrowing/constant, whether coverage suddenly dies away or smoothly fades away in SPL outside of the intended radiation pattern - depends on the application as well as the FR anomalies that can be tolerated.
 

RayDunzl

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Could there be an advantage to speakers with more directivity? They would interact less with the room, wouldn't they?

Unsmoothed frequency response (highlights room interaction in my opinion)

Red JBL LSR 308
Black Martin Logan reQuest

1571639414014.png


Room reflections mess with the on-axis imaging.

The room is not treated for side or ceiling reflections, because I don't need it with the main speakers.
 

Biblob

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Yeah there is, but there are shades of better in waveguides when it comes to the diffraction/other distortions introduced vs the dispersion pattern vs how linear response is within the intended dispersion pattern (how little change off-axis) vs the amount of loading for the driver, among other factors. Generally well-designed home audio waveguides have leaned toward having a smooth, blended geometry to minimise diffraction and higher-order modes (according to Geddes). But even those modern waveguides (especially the SEOS) are still impossible to find in complete speakers.
Which waveguides from Seos are you talking about?
 

watchnerd

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I'd say their methodology is quite similar, but the scale and the drivers used are different. Both adopt a very smooth geometry such that the off-axis response closely mimics the on-axis/listening axis and matches the drivers that are low-passed to cross with it. It is just that the OS/SEOS waveguides are designed for much large CtC spacing and depth to load compression drivers for higher SPL rather than direct-radiating domes and the curvature is adjusted for that. But the methodology appears similar.

I suppose my comment was with reference to large low-diffraction smooth waveguides for high-SPL use and directivity control to lower frequencies, rather than with dome tweeters, which have become increasingly common.

Right.

So I wouldn't say the absence of pervasive SEOS type waveguides means everyone else is doing it wrong.

And given the cheapness of amp power, and the desire most have for small size, the market seems to mostly not care much about sensitivity.

Although I'm pretty damn shocked at the 96 dB sens of the little Klipsch (es). I might have to get a pair just to play with them.
 
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Fluffy

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Unsmoothed frequency response (highlights room interaction in my opinion)

Red JBL LSR 308
Black Martin Logan reQuest

View attachment 36604

Room reflections mess with the on-axis imaging.

The room is not treated for side or ceiling reflections, because I don't need it with the main speakers.
Just to be clear, does this demonstrate that directive speakers can have a smoother on-axis response in an untreated room?
 

Ilkless

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Which waveguides from Seos are you talking about?

Geddes OS for one. Strange that one of the pioneers of modern waveguides can barely release any products on it. Last I checked on his website, he is retired but someone else is trying to manufacture it commercially. No updates on it.

There's also the 18Sound XT1464. And there's lots of interesting compression driver/waveguide pairs from BMS, B&C, Radian, Faital, Beyma and so on: https://www.audioxpress.com/tags/compression-drivers?page=1.

Right.

So I wouldn't say the absence of pervasive SEOS type waveguides means everyone else is doing it wrong.

No, but it would be nice to have the same smooth directivity, except to a lower frequency (given the waveguides are larger), higher sensitivity, more dynamics/less compression and higher max SPL as an option. It'd be the spiritual successor to the big horned vintage monitors, while updating it with modern engineering and design knowledge.
 

RayDunzl

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Just to be clear, does this demonstrate that directive speakers can have a smoother on-axis response in an untreated room?


That's not what I perceive.

1/6 smoothing:

1571646122892.png


I said difference in imaging.

One wider and more diffuse, one narrower and more focused.

Maybe not the best choice of words for the sensation.
 

Wombat

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Current use of waveguides is generally limited by the small dimensions of speakers, preferred by most consumers, to mainly high-mid to treble applications.

Waveguides come alive below those frequencies. A bigger baffle is required.
 
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