What do you guys think of the newly released Nobsound E6?

[fpitas]

oh man i got those dayton audio and they are bad, really bad....

In a way they're well-engineered, in that there doesn't seem to be just one part you can change to improve them. Everything is equally bad.

 

[Gorgonzola]

Uh oh. Those B652s have frustrated people for years.

But, but ... Steve Guttenburg says they're just fine.

 

[fpitas]

But, but ... Steve Guttenburg says they're just fine.

And he owns Zu Audio speakers. I'm seeing a pattern.

But being realistic, if you buy B652s you can't expect great things for that price.

 

[mhardy6647]

And he owns Zu Audio speakers. I'm seeing a pattern.

But being realistic, if you buy B652s you can't expect great things for that price.

Well, that's the quest, right? Is there good and cheap, even allowing for the fact that 'good' has to be on a sliding scale?

Here's an exampe (albeit an anachronistic one). When I was hunting loudpseakers in the mid 1970s, I listened to lots and lots and lots of loudspeakers of various kinds across a wide range (by mid-1970s standards!) of prices. My budget was extremely limited.
At the low end of the price scale, two models rose to the top with performance that (as some would say) punched well above their weight: The Acoustic Research AR-18 (original, unsuffixed morph) and a US made Yamaha sealed-box 2-way sold as the Yamaha NS-4.
The former were $65 each and the latter (if memory serves) $95 each.

I scrimped and saved and ultimately bought a demo pair of Polk Audio Monitor Series model 7A, which were inarguably better (and I still have them and I still think they sound very good, especially for their cost) -- but the above-mentioned models were the price/performance leaders at the bottom of the heap with no peer at the time, I thought then and still do today.

Much later, I had a pair of dump-find AR-18, which I refoamed (if memory serves) with proper surrounds sourced from Rick Cobb. Slightly scroungy cabinets but quite good sounding. Gave them to someone of very limited means who was wanted some good stereo sound, for which they serve admirably.



Now, the one cheap loudspeaker I've never heard and would like to have the opportunity to hear and fiddle with: the (in)famous, Andrew Jones-designed Pioneer SP-BS22 LR two-ways.

I almost acquired a pair inexpensively at a townwide yard sale in nearby Cornish Flat, NH a few years back --- but someone beat me to 'em.
I've never heard a pair.
I did actually own a pair of Mr. Jones' perhaps similarly (in)famous ELAC Debut 2.0 B6.2* loudspeakers -- and I didn't care for them all that much. In fact, i actually sold them recently... and I don't sell much.

_______________
* Who names these things? I hope they don't get paid too much!
(EDIT: Sorry, I forgot to include this very important footnote) when I originally posted this. )

 

[fpitas]

Well, that's the quest, right? Is there good and cheap, even allowing for the fact that 'good' has to be on a sliding scale?

Here's an exampe (albeit an anachronistic one). When I was hunting loudpseakers in the mid 1970s, I listened to lots and lots and lots of loudspeakers of various kinds across a wide range (by mid-1970s standards!) of prices. My budget was extremely limited.
At the low end of the price scale, two models rose to the top with performance that (as some would say) punched well above their weight: The Acoustic Research AR-18 (original, unsuffixed morph) and a US made Yamaha sealed-box 2-way sold as the Yamaha NS-4.
The former were $65 each and the latter (if memory serves) $95 each.

I scrimped and saved and ultimately bought a demo pair of Polk Audio Monitor Series model 7A, which were inarguably better (and I still have them and I still think they sound very good, especially for their cost) -- but the above-mentioned models were the price/performance leaders at the bottom of the heap with no peer at the time, I thought then and still do today.

Much later, I had a pair of dump-find AR-18, which I refoamed with proper surrounds from Rick Cobb (IIRC). Slightly scroungy but quite good sounding. Gave them to someone of very limited means who was wanted some good stereo sound, for which they serve admirably.



Now, the one cheap loudspeaker I've never heard and would like to have the opportunity to hear and fiddle with: the (in)famous, Andrew Jones-designed Pioneer SP-BS22 LR two-ways.

I almost acquired a pair inexpensively at a townwide yard sale in nearby Cornish Flat, NH --- but someone beat me to 'em.
I've never heard a pair.
I did actually own a pair of Mr. Jones' perhaps similarly (in)famous ELAC Debut 2.0 B6.2* loudspeakers -- and I didn't care for them all that much. In fact, i actually sold them recently... and I don't sell much.

It always confused me that they had Andrew Jones designing the bargain basement stuff. If I had a job like that I'd probably go do something useful with my life instead

 

[mhardy6647]

Maybe he liked the challenge.

I still like to seek out good, inexpensive wine. There was a time (yeah, OK, ca. 3 decades ago!) when it was quite possible to find excellent wine for $5 to 9 dollars a bottle. Not talkin' "two-buck Chuck": I am talking about good (well-crafted) but inexpensive wines purpose made by newer or lesser vintners to be good. I am not sure if his class of vintners or wines even exist any more.

To me, finding a really enjoyable $9 bottle of wine (today, proably more like $18 bottle of wine) was much more satisfying than spending big money for an inferior vintage of, say, Chateau Petrus. Then (and now!), any bottle of the latter I could afford was, at best, mediocre -- and still very expensive.

 

[fpitas]

Maybe he liked the challenge.

I still like to seek out good, inexpensive wine. There was a time (yeah, OK, ca. 3 decades ago!) when it was quite possible to find excellent wine for $5 to 9 dollars a bottle. Not talkin' "two-buck Chuck": I am talking about good but inexpensive wines purpose made by newer or lesser vintners that were purpose-made to be good. I am not sure if his class of vintners or wines even exist any more.

To me, finding a really enjoyable $9 bottle of wine (today, proably more like $18 bottle of wine) was much more satisfying than spending big money for an inferior vintage of, say, Chateau Petrus. Then (and now!), any bottle of the latter I could afford was, at best, mediocre -- and still very expensive.

I prefer vintage port if I'm drinking , but for regular vino I go with Carnivor. It is technically made by Gallo but if you like deep deep reds, it's not bad.

Maybe he did like the challenge, dunno.

 

[mhardy6647]

I've been known to quaff the occasional port.
Yes, big, hairy reds are our preference here. In full disclosure, I do get kind of hipster-y about classes of wines when they become popular and mutate into caricatures of their former selves*.

_______________
* As happened over the decades to (white, of course) chardonnay, (red!) Zinfandel, and, more recently, Malbec.

 

[fpitas]

I've been known to quaff the occasional port.
Yes, big, hairy reds are our preference here. In full disclosure, I do get kind of hipster-y about classes of wines when they become popular and mutate into caricatures of their former selves*.

_______________
* As happened over the decades to (white, of course) chardonnay, (red!) Zinfandel, and, more recently, Malbec.

Don't worry. Carnivor has few pretensions!

 

[fpitas]

A friend brought me bottles of Winking Owl wine, which have been maturing for several years, owls being quite long-lived. I haven't had any yet, but I want to like it. I mean...winking owl!

 

[Cbdb2]

You do realize that Global feedback is trying to correct a signal that has already passed through multiple gain stages, right?

How do you uncook an overcooked pizza that has already made it to the end of the conveyor oven?

I realize you don't know much about feedback.

 

[DavidMcRoy]

Oh, Christ. Okay, here we go: I just ordered one. Might be fun. I wonder if I'll like it as well as I do the Aphex Aural Exciter (hardware audio processor) or a similar-sounding plug-in that are used in video, movie and music production all the time? Maybe ASR should have a review category just for "vacuum tube gear/tube emulators," with as warning for purists to just steer clear of the discussions? We all know this is about euphonics. Not that there's anything wrong with that!

 

[DavidMcRoy]

Well, that was a quick turnaround. Ordered Saturday, delivered Monday morning, via Amazon. They must have them sitting on the shelf in our local Portland, Oregon "fulfillment center."

Hopefully, this one is as bad as the Nobsound E6 gets. The unit was "motorboating" until I swapped to a different wall wart (they don't supply one, you have to provide your own) and the stock tubes that came in mine are insanely, and I mean crazy insanely microphonic, but if you let the microphonics "ringing bells effect" settle for a minute or two after you so much as touch this thing, the high frequency distortion profile you get from the E6 is intoxicating. Put it on some Memory Foam or something.

The noise that arises from the microphonics issue is evident from as soon as you fire it up. It sounds like a single bell toll that won't quit ringing, but it gradually fades into the background. You have to wait for it.

"Motorboating" is a noise that sounds exactly like what the name implies, a low frequency pulsing like an idling single-cylce internal combustion engine. It's something I'd forgotten can plague audio gear from decades-in-the-past experience. I believe it's a feedback-related issue, sometimes to do with the power supply and sometimes to other sources. In this case, trying a different, random wall wart cured the problem.

From what I've read, there appears to be a lot of unit-to-unit variation among the stock China-sourced tubes with regard to how bad the microphonics issue is, and I have been unlucky in the tube lottery, it seems. There's a Russian equivalent tube that's supposedly much better in this regard. Replacing the stock tubes with the Russian one is NOT straightforward though, because the Russian tube is apparently supplied with the original metal "can" that surrounds it and it won't fit in the E6 without prying the can off of the tube or modifying the E6.

The bottom line: if you DO win the tube quality lottery, or if you're willing to put up with the caveats, including being able to somehow eliminate the motorboating issue or if you're lucky to have a unit that isn't plagued by it, you'll get a great tube experience in terms of what I personally find their most attractive, beguiling euphonic effects, at least in the mids and highs. But for these issues, I wouldn't hesitate to use it in voiceover production, for example in lieu of a tube emulator plug-in. Oh, there is some noise in the form of some hiss, but it seems "adequately quiet" feeding Aiyima A07s driving some very efficient dual MarkAudio Alpair 12P "full range" drivers used as bass-mids from 150Hz to 1500Hz in dipole, and GRS PT6818-8 dipole planar tweeters. (See my profile photo.) My tolerance for a little hiss may be higher than yours.

I haven't yet measured frequency response, but it sounds like there's more to the E6's tube effect than just a little peak around 8kHz, a trick that can give you a little taste of tube coloration without tubes, but cleaner, obviously. The distortion characteristics of these tubes are probably bringing a lot to the party.

If you can get one working as intended, the E6 is a very pleasantly colored signal processor. It's a $60 hit of audio crack, but it's not the best crack on the street. You get what you pay for, but it's Amazon so I'll return it and try a second sample. If Nobsound could fix all these issues they'd have a cheap panacea for anyone wanting to hear what "good tube sound" is all about. My suspicion, though is that a price increase would be required to cover the cost of testing, grading and matching the tubes and rejecting a bunch of them, and they need to get to the bottom of whatever is causing motorboating. In the meantime, I've ordered some supposedly higher quality Russian replacement tubes to modify to fit, to get the full experience.

 

[DavidMcRoy]

CORRECTION to prior post ^ too late to delete or edit:

The noise I described as "motorboating" was actually interference from a nearby Apple TV4K. Moving the Apple TV4K about a meter away eliminated the problem. The Nobsound E6 appears to be vulnerable to RF interference from nearby sources, but mine do not "motorboat."

I bought a second unit to use on the SL and SR surround channels, and it seems to perform exactly like the first one. I have some replacements tubes on order from soviet-tubes.com.

 

[mhardy6647]

The noise I described as "motorboating" was actually interference from a nearby Apple TV4K. Moving the Apple TV4K about a meter away eliminated the problem. The Nobsound E6 appears to be vulnerable to RF interference from nearby sources, but mine do not "motorboat."

Those metal shields were on the tubes for a reason...

 

[DavidMcRoy]

Those metal shields were on the tubes for a reason...

Precisely. Leaving them in place would have solved or at least reduced the effects of both key problems with this device: microphonics and RFI susceptibility. Using better tubes would have been nice, too.

 

[mhardy6647]

If this preamp were from the boys at Schiit, I'd think it was another one of their hipster jokes at the expense of the audiophile community, a la the SOL turntable and the new SYS for analog multichannel... but it's not. In other words, I don't know what the point of this gizmo is, other than the ability to claim the cachet associated with the use of direct heated tubes.

The irony of this (which, yes, I have mentiond already!) is that there are many old direct heated tube types from the early days of battery-powered portable radios -- in various base configurations (e.g., octals and miniatures, as well as earlier basing schemes) that are (still) available inexpensively. Some of those tube types are even pretty interesting.

Any old-ish RCA Receiving Tubes Manual can provide a rogues' gallery of them with all the data needed to put them to use, and a quick googling will turn up data on availability and pricing.

Here're a few semi-random examples. These are even all Loktal base tubes -- but with no can opener required!
source: https://worldradiohistory.com/BOOKSHELF-ARH/RCA-Books/RCA-Receiving-Tube-Manual-1950-RC-16-OCR.pdf

As an aside, I have heard (strictly anecdotally!) that most of the DH filament type tubes made for portable radios are, or tend to be, microphonic (FWIW).

 

[mhardy6647]

A parting thought

I just had an interesting idea. Rather than muck about with the low-rent DH filament tubes of portable radio days, why not go to the classics (2A3, 45, or 300B, e.g.) and build a proper all vacuum tube car audio system that takes advantage of the pure, clean HV DC and power capabilities of... modern EVs?!

I am thinking of a Schiit-Tesla tie-in (although someone like PS Audio could probably do it, and has enough guile to do it*). Top-tier Teslas with a vacuum tube, DHT, audiophile sound system.

I mean, heck, SchittTesla could even partner with Mat Weisfeld (VPI) or Roy Hall (Music Hall) to offer vinyl for the ultimate on-the-road entertainment experience! I envision the George Harrison signature Model S, but they could do Muhammad Ali or Lawrence Welk editions, too.

OK, I'll stop now.

________________
* Alternatively, Tesla could buy Audio Research at a fire-sale price! Think of all the the fun Elon could have!!

 

[fpitas]

If this preamp were from the boys at Schiit, I'd think it was another one of their hipster jokes at the expense of the audiophile community, a la the SOL turntable and the new SYS for analog multichannel... but it's not. In other words, I don't know what the point of this gizmo is, other than the ability to claim the cachet associated with the use of direct heated tubes.

The irony of this (which, yes, I have mentiond already!) is that there are many old direct heated tube types from the early days of battery-powered portable radios -- in various base configurations (e.g., octals and miniatures, as well as earlier basing schemes) that are (still) available inexpensively. Some of those tube types are even pretty interesting.

Any old-ish RCA Receiving Tubes Manual can provide a rogues' gallery of them with all the data needed to put them to use, and a quick googling will turn up data on availability and pricing.

Here're a few semi-random examples. These are even all Loktal base tubes -- but with no can opener required!
source: https://worldradiohistory.com/BOOKSHELF-ARH/RCA-Books/RCA-Receiving-Tube-Manual-1950-RC-16-OCR.pdf

View attachment 283863


As an aside, I have heard (strictly anecdotally!) that most of the DH filament type tubes made for portable radios are, or tend to be, microphonic (FWIW).

I suspect that, sans a cathode sheath, that flimsy filament wire wiggles just like that in a light bulb.

 

[Capitol C]

At a guess because they are ignorant of control theory, too?

The demonization of feedback is very amusing, and very unfortunate. The measurements are unequivocal, and the math can be followed by a person who remembers high-school algebra,