Virtual 7.1 Surround Sound processing in Headphones

[phoenixdogfan]

Nice, HD800s might be the classical choice as a basis. How's it compare to your sound localisation with your real speaker system? Am I right in thinking you're asking the software to create more speakers than you currently own in your real speaker system? If so, then how convincing is that.....how does it go about extrapolating the extra speakers? How many speakers you got in your real system?

EDIT: do you just measure your speaker at different angles (the angle that virtual speaker would actually be at in relation to you) as part of the setup process? So if it was rear right roof you'd just have to make sure your speaker was up there and you were down there when you were doing the setup calibration sweeps? Then the software combines it all?

The process involves rotating the head. For example, the center is created by looking directly at the right speaker. For the most part I didn't move the speakers (except to create the height channels), rather the idea was to record impulses two speakers at a time with the speakers being at the angles the speakers would be in if they were actually there in a multi speaker room. Each of these "PRIR" pairs are then added to the virtual room until you have the full complement (in this case 16) to create a full virtual surround sound room. And, they do indeed really sound like my live speakers, except perhaps better b/c the dynamic limitations of a speaker like the LS 50 are transcended when something like an HD 800 or LCD X (which can play at 114 db) are programmed to emulate the LS50's sonic signature (transfer function). Obviously, the real LS50s could never approach that kind of volume, but the virtualized ones can--and with the distortion levels of the headphones (check out the LCD X's distortion profile in A,mir's review!) rather than the speakers.

 

[Robbo99999]

The process involves rotating the head. For example, the center is created by looking directly at the right speaker. For the most part I didn't move the speakers (except to create the height channels), rather the idea was to record impulses two speakers at a time with the speakers being at the angles the speakers would be in if they were actually there in a multi speaker room. Each of these "PRIR" pairs are then added to the virtual room until you have the full complement (in this case 16) to create a full virtual surround sound room. And, they do indeed really sound like my live speakers, except perhaps better b/c the dynamic limitations of a speaker like the LS 50 are transcended when something like an HD 800 or LCD X (which can play at 114 db) are programmed to emulate the LS50's sonic signature (transfer function). Obviously, the real LS50s could never approach that kind of volume, but the virtualized ones can--and with the distortion levels of the headphones (check out the LCD X's distortion profile in A,mir's review!) rather than the speakers.

Nice, I can understand & visualise your description and how it does that. How much did you pay for the Smyth Realiser A16 all-in? Do they give you any kind of personalised support, I had thought when I read about it ages ago that it involved going to one of their listening rooms where you could borrow their speakers and treated listening room and they set it up for you.....but I might have imagined that ha?

 

[Robbo99999]

There are different HRTF like mentioned which uses IIR to create the virtual sound (and well emulate the various brands' products/solutions). Of course since it's a add on on top of EqualizerAPO you then can add other things like your equalization for the target curve you like and you can tweak the virtual spearkers' positions and levels too for example (inside the HeSuVi GUI directly).
I even tried the virtual surround IIR for speakers and it is quiet good if you tweak a few paramenters.

That sounds pretty versatile in it's flexibility & usage, it doesn't sound as complicated as The Impulcifier Project either, but it sounds like there'd be an element of trial & error involved in trying out the different HRTF's to see which suited you best? Do you know how much latency and CPU usage it takes up on your system (what system you got)? (EqualiserAPO shows the latency & CPU usage in the Analysis Panel). The reason I ask about latency & CPU usage is due to effects on gaming reaction time and system resources.

 

[phoenixdogfan]

Nice, I can understand & visualise your description and how it does that. How much did you pay for the Smyth Realiser A16 all-in? Do they give you any kind of personalised support, I had thought when I read about it ages ago that it involved going to one of their listening rooms where you could borrow their speakers and treated listening room and they set it up for you.....but I might have imagined that ha?

Over $4k. I did have to send it back for repair in the midst of covid, and they had to change boards, and it got lost a coupla times by the freight carrier, so I had to wait 8 months for a repair, but I got a free upgrade from the 16 channel to the 24 channel model. Lots of ancillary expenses. Bought a Motu M4 for A to D conversion, so I could feed the measurement signal to my PC so I could use Dirac Live correction on my LS 50s, bought two height adjustable stands, 8 sets of interconnects, 8 stereo single to two break out wires, a special stand to place the base unit for the headtracker, and a large salesman sample case to hold the A16 for when I travel with it to take PRIRs. Will also probably buy the wireless headtrackers when they come down the pike. Ancillary stuff was around $500 including the Motu. Also the warranty requires you pay shipment cost back to N Ireland if it needs repair, had to do that twice b/c of the freight snafus at $130 a pop, plus Tennessee levied a $400 use tax on my purchase (bastards!). So around $5k+ all in.

 

[Robbo99999]

Over $4k. I did have to send it back for repair in the midst of covid, and they had to change boards, and it got lost a coupla times by the freight carrier, so I had to wait 8 months for a repair, but I got a free upgrade from the 16 channel to the 24 channel model. Lots of ancillary expenses. Bought a Motu M4 for A to D conversion, so I could feed the measurement signal to my PC so I could use Dirac Live correction on my LS 50s, bought two height adjustable stands, 8 sets of interconnects, 8 stereo single to two break out wires, a special stand to place the base unit for the headtracker, and a large salesman sample case to hold the A16 for when I travel with it to take PRIRs. Will also probably buy the wireless headtrackers when they come down the pike. Ancillary stuff was around $500 including the Motu. Also the warranty requires you pay shipment cost back to N Ireland if it needs repair, had to do that twice b/c of the freight snafus at $130 a pop, plus Tennessee levied a $400 use tax on my purchase (bastards!). So around $5k+ all in.

Well, look, that definitely beats spending $4k on an Abyss Diana headphone or something! It's an impressive system and extremely good value in context of comparison to the Abyss Diana! EDIT: apologies, Abyss Diana is only $3k......your Smyth is still good value in comparison!! And also it's cheaper than having 24 quality speakers in your room!! Have you thought about wearing one of these as well: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ound-the-most-like-speakers.25575/post-872349

 

[Jimbob54]

Well, look, that definitely beats spending $4k on an Abyss Diana headphone or something! It's an impressive system and extremely good value in context of comparison to the Abyss Diana! EDIT: apologies, Abyss Diana is only $3k......your Smyth is still good value in comparison!! And also it's cheaper than having 24 quality speakers in your room!! Have you thought about wearing one of these as well: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ound-the-most-like-speakers.25575/post-872349

I've seen the ads for Woojer. Not a cat in hells chance id get one. I'll settle for whatever bass I can get from the cans. Looks like something you'd wear for lazer quest.

 

[Music1969]

Is there a test file that I can play on headphones, that best demonstrates 'spatial audio'.

Something that shows the 'state of the art', allowing me to hear sound behind me, above me, in front etc.

I tried this and it really don't blow my socks off. The sound that is supposed to be rear is still on the side to me.

 

[Music1969]

This one also didn't knock my socks off (compared to 7.1 Atmos speaker setup) but is better than the THX one

 

[Robbo99999]

I've seen the ads for Woojer. Not a cat in hells chance id get one. I'll settle for whatever bass I can get from the cans. Looks like something you'd wear for lazer quest.

C'mon man, get your booty into the street and start dancing!

Is there a test file that I can play on headphones, that best demonstrates 'spatial audio'.

Something that shows the 'state of the art', allowing me to hear sound behind me, above me, in front etc.

I tried this and it really don't blow my socks off. The sound that is supposed to be rear is still on the side to me.

If you've got Soundblaster or another kind of Virtual Surround Sound processing enabled on your system then you can play the following simple test file to notice the exact location of the different speakers, but this will only work if you have somekind of surround processing enabled on your system, so it's more for verifying that virtual surround is working as intended:
https://www2.iis.fraunhofer.de/AAC/7.1auditionOutLeader v2.wav
But the following youtube vid will show you some different surround sound implementations in games, make sure you've got your sound setup in normal 2 channel mode with no surround sound processing active, so essentially just listen to the following using normal headphones (linked by @zermak earlier in the thread):

EDIT: there's probably some better vids out there showing comparisons of different surround technologies on the same game sections so that you can directly compare more accurately, and vids that go out of their way to isolate & show particular spatial effects that demonstrate the ability more effectively, whereas that vid wasn't very scientific about how it was showing it off.

 

[Music1969]

If you've got Soundblaster or another kind of Virtual Surround Sound processing enabled on your system

I don't.

I want some kind of demo that already has the virtual surround sound tech embedded like I linked above, to show the best that virtual surround / immersive / spatial audio has to offer.

Is this different to what your thread is about?

If so, I'm happy to start a different thread, so I'm not off topic here.

 

[Robbo99999]

I don't.

I want some kind of demo that already has the virtual surround sound tech embedded like I linked above, to show the best that virtual surround / immersive / spatial audio has to offer.

Is this different to what your thread is about?

If so, I'm happy to start a different thread, so I'm not off topic here.

No, that's cool, same topic as this thread, as this is all things Virtual Surround Sound. That vid I linked you shows you the different effects of the different virtual surround sound companies.....in order to get the proper experience you have to listen to that using normal headphones and have no surround sound processing active (because the surround sound processing has already been captured in that video and mixed down to the 2 channels). Yes, so given you don't have any surround sound options at the moment, then you'll be fine to experience that video with your headphones. I remember seeing some videos that did better demonstrations & comparisons, but if I was you I'd just google for some other ones after you've checked out the video I linked you.

 

[Music1969]

No, that's cool, same topic as this thread, as this is all things Virtual Surround Sound. That vid I linked you shows you the different effects of the different virtual surround sound companies.....in order to get the proper experience you have to listen to that using normal headphones and have no surround sound processing active (because the surround sound processing has already been captured in that video and mixed down to the 2 channels). Yes, so given you don't have any surround sound options at the moment, then you'll be fine to experience that video with your headphones. I remember seeing some videos that did better demonstrations & comparisons, but if I was you I'd just google for some other ones after you've checked out the video I linked you.

Thanks the Out of Your Head 'Genelec Studio' is the only one that really sound like sound was behind me.

But maybe it was that particular sequence that helped bring this out more. Would have been cool to have that particular gaming sequence for comparison of all the others.

 

[Robbo99999]

Thanks the Out of Your Head 'Genelec Studio' is the only one that really sound like sound was behind me.

But maybe it was that particular sequence that helped bring this out more. Would have been cool to have that particular gaming sequence for comparison of all the others.

Yeah, that's exactly what I thought...in terms of they should have had the same sequence repeated but with the different virtual surround sound implementations. There's certainly YouTube vids out there that do exactly what we've just described as an ideal (ie the same sequence but with different virtual surround implementations). If you like have a Google & see if you can find some such vids & post back with your findings of which you prefer and the link to the vid.

 

[stubaggs]

Interesting, I've not heard of them before, are you affiliated with them? It's positive that the software appears as a real 7.1 device, so that means it can have a stab at processing all the channels from a game. I noticed that they have an option to select the model of headphone you're using, and to me that makes sense because they'd want their frequency response modifications that would be involved with HRTF processing to fair well and be noticeable amidst the often "crazy" frequency responses of headphones. Do you know how this software would do when used with a headphone that was Harman EQ'd? Do you know if there is an option to select that your headphone is EQ'd to Harman Curve? Do you know what the software does when you tell it you're using a certain headphone model, does it do a preliminary EQ stage to convert the headphone frequency response to a more preferred curve (which one?) before HRTF processing is applied? These are very detailed questions, and I don't know how much you know about the company and how they implement their system or even if you are affiliated with them? Given your low post count (no problem) I'm thinking you might be affiliated with the company given you're introducing them, a surround solution I've not heard of before. It seems like good value as a piece of software, in terms of price, and seems promising that they're taking headphone model into account....what else can you tell me about them.

Sorry, I am just an enthusiast, not affiliated with the company. I think they have a demo so you can try it out.

 

[phoenixdogfan]

Well, look, that definitely beats spending $4k on an Abyss Diana headphone or something! It's an impressive system and extremely good value in context of comparison to the Abyss Diana! EDIT: apologies, Abyss Diana is only $3k......your Smyth is still good value in comparison!! And also it's cheaper than having 24 quality speakers in your room!! Have you thought about wearing one of these as well: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ound-the-most-like-speakers.25575/post-872349

I have had a Subpac as my tactile subwoofer for years. I also used Out of Your Head for years before I got the A16. OOYH is good but not A16. But OOTH costs a couple of hundred dollars not $5 k, and it's important you find a preset that works to your satisfaction. I only found two out of 23. YMMV.

If you go with OOYH either use a Mac or be certain he's solved his issues with Windows.

 

[Robbo99999]

I have had a Subpac as my tactile subwoofer for years.

You aheada the game boi!

I could actually see myself investing in the Smyth Realiser in a few years if nothing better (cheaper) comes along, but I'd try Impulcifier Project first....I'm not in a major rush though because I like the Harman Curve when it comes to Headphones, but I can totally see the expanse of the Smyth & Impulcifier.

EDIT: @phoenixdogfan , you got some links for OOYH & OOTH?

 

[phoenixdogfan]

You aheada the game boi!

I could actually see myself investing in the Smyth Realiser in a few years if nothing better (cheaper) comes along, but I'd try Impulcifier Project first....I'm not in a major rush though because I like the Harman Curve when it comes to Headphones, but I can totally see the expanse of the Smyth & Impulcifier.

EDIT: @phoenixdogfan , you got some links for OOYH & OOTH?

OOTH is my very bad mistype of "on the other hand.' OOYH link is as follows:

https://fongaudio.com/out-of-your-head-software/

Darrin Fong is a great guy who will go far out of his way to make you happy.

 

[phoenixdogfan]

Nice, I can understand & visualise your description and how it does that. How much did you pay for the Smyth Realiser A16 all-in? Do they give you any kind of personalised support, I had thought when I read about it ages ago that it involved going to one of their listening rooms where you could borrow their speakers and treated listening room and they set it up for you.....but I might have imagined that ha?

Check the thread in Head Fi. The method I used is called the "Audio Hobbit" method after one of the denizens of that thread. It's explained in great detail there.

 

[musicreo]

I noticed that they have an option to select the model of headphone you're using, and to me that makes sense because they'd want their frequency response modifications that would be involved with HRTF processing to fair well and be noticeable amidst the often "crazy" frequency responses of headphones.

I tested the demo (not all rooms are included) some time ago. The EQ profiles for the headphones are just very basic and not a full headphone compensation. There is also a option to reduce the decay time as often found on convolution filters.

 

[Robbo99999]

OOTH is my very bad mistype of "on the other hand.' OOYH link is as follows:

https://fongaudio.com/out-of-your-head-software/

Darrin Fong is a great guy who will go far out of his way to make you happy.

Cool, I've got so many different ideas to try now from this thread! I had a quick look there, they didn't mention gaming, do you know if there are some latency issues associated with it, as I'm wondering why they didn't mention gaming?

I tested the demo (not all rooms are included) some time ago. The EQ profiles for the headphones are just very basic and not a full headphone compensation. There is also a option to reduce the decay time as often found on convolution filters.

Ah yeah, you're talking about the New Audio Spatial soundcard that was talked about earlier (https://newaudiotechnology.com/products/spatial-sound-card-2/ ). How did you find it, was it effective? Did you compare it against some other virtual surround solutions?