Turntables - help me understand the appeal?

[MattHooper]

I just came home from visiting a friend who is using a VPI Prime turntable with the relatively new DS Audio DS 003 "optical" cartridge (and accompanying proprietary phono stage). He was using a giant Hegel SS amp and preamp with Aurelia XO Cerica XL speakers.

He spun me some records and I brought a few of my own (not sonic spectaculars per se, just some records I've been listening to recently).

Crikey! The speakers just "weren't there" as apparent sound sources. Palpable instruments and voices just appeared all around the speakers (depending on recording placement of course). Utterly clean and clear from top to bottom. Super vivid detail, delicate timbral nuance, amazingly lively dynamics, pitch perfect bass in track after track. Yet another experience that re-enforces for me I don't need a digital source to experience spectacular sound quality.

He has a big pair of Estelon speakers in another system, Hegel amps I think, and streaming from a raspberry Pi set up. I find his vinyl system produces more "holy cow!" sense of palpability and vividness. Of course there are some more variables between the systems than just the turntable. But on the turntable set up here was no sense of softened or truncated highs - acoustic guitar, drum cymbals, were reproduced with an almost life-like clarity and vividness/airiness, and sense of dynamics in terms of the plucking of the strings. No problem with the bass - lots of distinct character whether it was stand up bass, synth bass or a variety of electric bass. And some bass was room vibrating.

I have a feeling that if the OP had heard this set up, he would understand some of the appeal of turntables

 

[egellings]

If you like vinyl, then enjoy it. If you don't like vinyl, just pass it by and let those who, for whatever reason, enjoy it.

 

[TheBatsEar]

acoustic guitar, drum cymbals, were reproduced with an almost life-like clarity and vividness/airiness, and sense of dynamics in terms of the plucking of the strings.

I wonder what you would have heard listening to the same tunes from CD. Probably the same, minus the clicks.

Are we (by which i mean you) fooling ourselves into thinking records actually sound better than digital sources of the same mix? I like records, but objectively it's a worse medium than say CD, if the mix is the same.

 

[TheBatsEar]

If you like vinyl, then enjoy it. If you don't like vinyl, just pass it by and let those who, for whatever reason, enjoy it.

Nay! This must be discussed till we are all on the same page!

 

[MattHooper]

I wonder what you would have heard listening to the same tunes from CD. Probably the same, minus the clicks.

Are we (by which i mean you) fooling ourselves into thinking records actually sound better than digital sources of the same mix? I like records, but objectively it's a worse medium than say CD, if the mix is the same.

Well I'm used to comparing CD (ripped) to vinyl at my own place. And at his place last time I actually did, after being wow'd by his vinyl system, go to his other system and stream some of the same music tracks to compare. The vinyl set up sounded distinctly more vivid and transparent. Again...not an apples to apples comparison, different speakers, different room.

But my point wasn't that the vinyl was any better than CD (even if I happened to prefer the vinyl). But rather, that vinyl set ups CAN sound absolutely amazing (at least to me and many others). Far better than many vinyl nay-sayers may lead one to believe ;-)

 

[MattHooper]

Nay! This must be discussed till we are all on the same page!

Now THAT was funny !!

 

[teashea]

Apologies Cote, but you "don't get it".
This world and the vast majority of the internet is full of places repeating the Mikey Fremer lies of Hi Fi.
The BS line that it's pure analog when combined with a vinyl source that is the true path to SOTA High Fidelity.
teashea, your right, it's not just nostalgia, part of it is all the BS younger people are reading elsewhere on the internet.
I can't begin to list the number of times I've read that vinyl is "the audiophiles" choice source for music.
Witness the upheaval over the MoFi scandal.
Cote, I am sorry that me repeating the truths of vinyl as a source for quality music in this century hurts your feelings.
But as I've also repeated "ad nauseam", this is ASR, if you want to hear the snake-oil Mikey Fremer praise of vinyl without
criticism, head on over to Analog Planet or where ever MF is spreading his lies today, or just about any subjective based site.
If you have the funds and enjoy playing with all the toys that keep vinyl spinning, be my guest.
But ASR has grown at an incredible rate since 2016 in the main because our readers learn the truth here.
I will continue to inform our newest members of the fact that vinyl is a seriously inferior medium for the reproduction of music.
Once those truths are presented the reader is free to spend his money as he pleases.

Amen. The truth is the truth.

I enjoy vinyl, but not because I think it reproduces sound faithfully. It does not. It rolls off the highs and lows and adds a considerable amount of distortion. I have eight turntables, including one in each of my six sound systems, because they are fun. I enjoy messing around with their electo and mechanical peculiarities.

 

[teashea]

Well I'm used to comparing CD (ripped) to vinyl at my own place. And at his place last time I actually did, after being wow'd by his vinyl system, go to his other system and stream some of the same music tracks to compare. The vinyl set up sounded distinctly more vivid and transparent. Again...not an apples to apples comparison, different speakers, different room.

But my point wasn't that the vinyl was any better than CD (even if I happened to prefer the vinyl). But rather, that vinyl set ups CAN sound absolutely amazing (at least to me and many others). Far better than many vinyl nay-sayers may lead one to believe ;-)

Understandable. Some people prefer the warmer sound of vinyl with the rolled off frequencies and added harmonic distortion. But we should remember that vinyl is not accurate sound. Its reproduction is pleasantly altered.

 

[TheBatsEar]

But my point wasn't that the vinyl was any better than CD (even if I happened to prefer the vinyl). But rather, that vinyl set ups CAN sound absolutely amazing (at least to me and many others). Far better than many vinyl nay-sayers may lead one to believe ;-)

Fair enough.

I enjoy messing around with their electo and mechanical peculiarities.

I try to avoid that as much as i can

Denon DP-47F with a AT-VM95ML into a Cambridge Audio Duo preamp. As simple and fully automatic as it gets. Almost.

I would love to have a track skip button (Sharp Optonica RP-7100, i'll find you eventually!) and wouldn't mind a switch sides button.

 

[pseudoid]

Thanks in advance for sharing your opinions.

Three years ago (2019/Jan), you had asked for assistance: Was anyone ever able to "help me [you] understand the appeal"?

 

[Sal1950]

But my point wasn't that the vinyl was any better than CD (even if I happened to prefer the vinyl). But rather, that vinyl set ups CAN sound absolutely amazing (at least to me and many others).

Absolutely amazing in the distorted noisy way of vinyls limited capability.
From the master tape it's FR has been modified, bass nearly mono'd, sq changes from the outer to inner groves, etc etc etc.
It will sound nothing at all like the master tape, only digital can do that.

 

[Jmudrick]

Absolutely amazing in the distorted noisy way of vinyls limited capability.
From the master tape it's FR has been modified, bass nearly mono'd, sq changes from the outer to inner groves, etc etc etc.
It will sound nothing at all like the master tape, only digital can do that.

I think that's pretty widely accepted but irrelevant for many. I remember engineer Keith Johnson saying while his digital recording sounded more like the master he preferred to listen to vinyl at home because he liked the sound of it. I don't think that's too hard to understand.

 

[Sal1950]

I don't think that's too hard to understand.

Not a bit, but a far cry from High Fidelity, the reason this hobby started back in the 1950s in the first place.
You may prefer to turn on the loudness button and crank your bass to +10 also, but that say nothing about accuracy.

 

[Cote Dazur]

I think that's pretty widely accepted but irrelevant for many. I remember engineer Keith Johnson saying while his digital recording sounded more like the master he preferred to listen to vinyl at home because he liked the sound of it. I don't think that's too hard to understand.

It seems very hard to understand for some. On one side their is digital files that are technically superior and on the other side older technology vinyl records played on admittedly older technology TT with limitations that can still produce a very enticing listening experience for some. It does not seem hard to grasp, but some do not get it, but it is OK, we like them anyway, as we all love music, just not all exactly the same way.

 

[Sal1950]

It seems very hard to understand for some.

What's very hard to understand for me is if you really love music, why you would be satisfied to listen to an inferior sounding
source when a highly more accurate and cleaner one is available for much less money. It's also one that has an infinite life and is miles more convenient to use. That math never adds up for me. It simply tells me you'd rather spend time playing with the gear than actually listening to music.

 

[Jmudrick]

Not a bit, but a far cry from High Fidelity, the reason this hobby started back in the 1950s in the first place.
You may prefer to turn on the loudness button and crank your bass to +10 also, but that say nothing about accuracy.

I've been around long enough to know that for most hi-fi enthusiasts the quest was for a realistic portrayal of a musical experience, not accuracy to a master tape. Nobody spending large on their Conrad Johnson or McIntosh tube equipment was wowed because of it's resemblance to a master but rather for recreating the feel of a live musical experience, not necessarily a reflection of what the engineer got on tape.

I personally don't have a loudness button, don't listen much to my vinyl,.but find no reason to disparage people who enjoy it

 

[Sal1950]

I've been around long enough to know that for most hi-fi enthusiasts the quest was for a realistic portrayal of a musical experience, not accuracy to a master tape.

Baloney, that's why it's called Hi Fi.

.but find no reason to disparage people who enjoy it

I understand, you such a nice person you won't tell people the truth if it hurts their feelings.
That's nice.

 

[MattHooper]

Understandable. Some people prefer the warmer sound of vinyl with the rolled off frequencies and added harmonic distortion. But we should remember that vinyl is not accurate sound. Its reproduction is pleasantly altered.

I've seen the "rolled off high frequencies" thing mentioned but this could be misleading, I think. It could lead to the impression that vinyl will SOUND like it's just all rolled off, soft high frequencies. I'm far from an expert on vinyl mastering etc, but from what I've read there is no universal "rolling off of high frequencies" such that all vinyl will sound "rolled off." It depends on the music and mastering. IF there are more extreme high frequency content THEN the mastering engineer may make some decisions as to how to deal with it, like attenuate the high frequencies somewhat at that point. But, again, from what I've looked in to, a lot of this is pointed at de- essing, so a certain frequency range is dipped. It's not like you just lose all the high frequencies (I de-ess, via EQ, fairly often). Cartridges are often rated (and measure) response up to at least 20kHz, and as I understand it vinyl is at least in principle capable of higher frequencies than that (even if in practice you usually don't get it).

This understanding comports with what I hear when comparing vinyl to digital. I can certainly hear some softness or rolled off highs on some vinyl, especially an older worn record. But then, I can hear rolled off highs in all sorts of recordings in digital too. But as a general snapshot, I do not notice some major advantage for the digital sound. As mentioned earlier today, the highs on that turntable set up were as vivid and airy as any I've heard, and in fact sounded more vivid than on his other digital-sourced system. I don't think you would describe what I head as "warm."

And on my own system I usually hear wonderful vivid airy high end - cymbals pop and shimmer in a life-like way just like I hear form my digital source. And when I do direct comparisons of a good vinyl release and the CD, which came from the same original master, again...I don't hear some obvious diminution of the high end. The vinyl can even sound a bit more present and vivid.

I think the high frequency thing is a bit of a mountain-out-of-a-molehill. It may be the case that high frequencies are attenuated, to various degrees for different vinyl releases, but I find the critical regions that allow for presence and realism are still there in many records. (And a lot of ASR members likely have high frequency roll off in their hearing by now that would obviate some of these differences anyway... )

 

[MattHooper]

Absolutely amazing in the distorted noisy way of vinyls limited capability.
From the master tape it's FR has been modified, bass nearly mono'd, sq changes from the outer to inner groves, etc etc etc.
It will sound nothing at all like the master tape, only digital can do that.

Yeah, but vinyl can produce the whole waveform, so it sounds natural. Digital just chops it up and is missing half the sound!

 

[teashea]

Yeah, but vinyl can produce the whole waveform, so it sounds natural. Digital just chops it up and is missing half the sound!

That is absolutely false.