Turn off or not to turn off?

[Blumlein 88]

So after conversion to nat gas for electricity generation there's limited gains to be had for economy? We've economized economically and other areas are more low hanging fruit now.

My personal vampire draw inventory. So I guess I'm expending my mental budget so I guess it is excessive anyway.

Two cell phone chargers, 3 active speakers that go into standby mode after a few minutes, a computer that also has a standby mode, and a Marantz pre/pro. Other devices are on and off as needed.

Both cell phone chargers also have an overly bright LED whether in use or not. They also are places where if they weren't there I'd put a night light. So they are effectively night light/chargers. I don't know if there is any wasted juice in their case.

The Marantz pre/pro also is a night light, but I think it draws a few watts when an LED night light would be half or third watt.

I think the speakers draw .5 watts in standby.

My computer is a home server where they took a low powered laptop CPU, and built a motherboard and case for it. Draws a few watts in standby. I sometimes leave a laptop on which is a Plex server. So I might have 10 watts in vampire usage. Let us just say 15 watts. My home is pretty efficient and all electric. Based upon my monthly average electric bill the vampire power is right about 1% of my total usage.

The idea this is important is misplaced enthusiasm. Yes, check it when buying something new, otherwise not worth my time.

 

[Doodski]

My personal vampire draw inventory. So I guess I'm expending my mental budget so I guess it is excessive anyway.

Two cell phone chargers, 3 active speakers that go into standby mode after a few minutes, a computer that also has a standby mode, and a Marantz pre/pro. Other devices are on and off as needed.

Both cell phone chargers also have an overly bright LED whether in use or not. They also are places where if they weren't there I'd put a night light. So they are effectively night light/chargers. I don't know if there is any wasted juice in their case.

The Marantz pre/pro also is a night light, but I think it draws a few watts when an LED night light would be half or third watt.

I think the speakers draw .5 watts in standby.

My computer is a home server where they took a low powered laptop CPU, and built a motherboard and case for it. Draws a few watts in standby. I sometimes leave a laptop on which is a Plex server. So I might have 10 watts in vampire usage. Let us just say 15 watts. My home is pretty efficient and all electric. Based upon my monthly average electric bill the vampire power is right about 1% of my total usage.

The idea this is important is misplaced enthusiasm. Yes, check it when buying something new, otherwise not worth my time.

The premise of the enthusiasm is in the savings of primary carbon emitter stuff. Like making concrete is very carbon intensive, rebar, trucking all this stuff around etc. Any project with massive amounts of concrete is carbon emitter low hanging fruit. So by stopping another nuclear reactor or a hydroelectric dam from being built by economizing on concrete carbon emissions we can get closer to being carbon neutral. I'm all for extending industry over reach to develop new systems and resource use and distribution etc. Hydrogen is awesome in that once the carbon is sequestered it can be piped to homes in the present distribution pipes and used in similar forced air heating ductwork and that creates jobs.

 

[Blumlein 88]

The premise of the enthusiasm is in the savings of primary carbon emitter stuff. Like making concrete is very carbon intensive, rebar, trucking all this stuff around etc. Any project with massive amounts of concrete is carbon emitter low hanging fruit. So by stopping another nuclear reactor or a hydroelectric dam from being built by economizing on concrete carbon emissions we can get closer to being carbon neutral. I'm all for extending industry over reach to develop new systems and resource use and distribution etc. Hydrogen is awesome in that once the carbon is sequestered it can be piped to homes in the present distribution pipes and used in similar forced air heating ductwork and that creates jobs.

Hydrogen is awesome in that once the carbon is sequestered it can be piped to homes in the present distribution pipes and used in similar forced air heating ductwork and that creates jobs.

Yes pipelines for distribution are one of the better ways. Seals, compressors and valves that won't leak hydrogen are on a whole different level than what works for methane. All of that would need replacing. The metal pipelines can have trouble due to hydrogen embrittlement. They would need replacing or coating or maybe traces of other chemicals and water vapor can be added to control this problem. It isn't nearly like you just start feeding hydrogen thru such a system and easy peasy it works.

 

[r042wal]

All my components integrate with my Harmony Elite remote control, everything except my McIntosh power amp. It's been this way since 2016 and I hated leaving the power amp on all the time unless I made the effort to manually turn it off.

I just discovered last week by connecting my McIntosh preamp to my power amp with a 1/8" stereo cord, the power amp shuts off when you turn the preamp off. It pays to sometimes read the instruction manual sometimes

 

[raif71]

 

[Mr. Widget]

I just discovered last week by connecting my McIntosh preamp to my power amp with a 1/8" stereo cord, the power amp shuts off when you turn the preamp off. It pays to sometimes read the instruction manual sometimes

Reading the manual... damn, I knew I forgot something!

My John Curl designed and built Vendetta phono preamp from the '80s has no controls. No power switch, nada. It is meant to be plugged in and left running 24/7. It is by nature a very low power device and runs cool. Mine has been running for decades. About a year ago I was having a noise issue so I sent the unit back to John for service. He said that it was still operating within specifications and didn't require any repair or adjustments. When I got the unit back in my system I discovered the culprit.

It was embarrassing. I should have caught it right away. The problem was a loose head shell wire. I jumped to conclusions and assumed the problem must have been due to the preamp's age and the fact that it has been continuously running for well over 300,000 hours!

 

[restorer-john]

I do have a remote "cabin in the woods"

I liked that movie in a weird kind of way.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Reading the manual... damn, I knew I forgot something!

My John Curl designed and built Vendetta phono preamp from the '80s has no controls. No power switch, nada. It is meant to be plugged in and left running 24/7. It is by nature a very low power device and runs cool. Mine has been running for decades. About a year ago I was having a noise issue so I sent the unit back to John for service. He said that it was still operating within specifications and didn't require any repair or adjustments. When I got the unit back in my system I discovered the culprit.

It was embarrassing. I should have caught it right away. The problem was a loose head shell wire. I jumped to conclusions and assumed the problem must have been due to the preamp's age and the fact that it has been continuously running for well over 300,000 hours!

I believe those used Nichicon caps. Rated for 2000 hr life at 105 C. Now they probably aren't over 30 C in that application. So in that use 300,000 hours is probably about the effective rated life. Of course they likely are also running at well below the rated voltage.

 

[antcollinet]

Yes, but is that really how to look at it? What is huge?

For instance there are 142 million homes in the USA. If each one is wasting 1 watt ( and surely most are doing more than that), we are talking 142 megawatts. Huge amount in some sense. Out of the 143 trillion kw/hrs residences consume annually, even 100 times that much isn't 1%. Changing your thermostat .5 degree would be an overwhelmingly larger difference. I get it and everything matters, but that is pretty far down the list of important issues.

Most are probably wasting hundreds of watts. I measured just my TV (HT) setup. 60W with everything in standby (Mostly from a sub that doesn't. I've bought a wifi switch for the whole thing and it gets turned off when not in use now.

Overall in the process I've taken nearly 200W out of my base load.

 

[MCH]

I believe those used Nichicon caps. Rated for 2000 hr life at 105 C. Now they probably aren't over 30 C in that application. So in that use 300,000 hours is probably about the effective rated life. Of course they likely are also running at well below the rated voltage.

Careful with that logic.
It is a chemical process that determines the life of a cap? If not, Arrhenius law does not apply (for instance, evaporation of the electrolyte -i am making it up, I have no idea of how a cap works or what it contains, just an example). Even if it is indeed a chemical process, it is a bit more complex than that (activation energies etc.)

 

[Blumlein 88]

Careful with that logic.
It is a chemical process that determines the life of a cap? If not, Arrhenius law does not apply (for instance, evaporation of the electrolyte -i am making it up, I have no idea of how a cap works or what it contains, just an example). Even if it is indeed a chemical process, it is a bit more complex than that (activation energies etc.)

Design lifetime at rated temperature​

Manufacturers of electrolytic capacitors specify the design lifetime at the maximum rated ambient temperature, usually 105°C. This design lifetime can vary from as little as 1,000 hours to 10,000 hours or more. The longer the design lifetime, the longer the component will last in a given application and ambient temperature.


Manufacturers provide calculations to determine lifetime in application. These are based on the Arrhenius equation for temperature dependence of reaction rates. This determines that the reaction rate doubles for every 10°C rise in temperature. That means that the lifetime doubles for each 10°C reduction in temperature, so a capacitor rated at 5,000 hours at 105°C would have a service life of 10,000 hours at 95°C and 20,000 hours at 85°C.

Electrolytic capacitors determine the lifetime of a power supply

The service life of electrolytic capacitors is a key design parameter in power supplies. Our blog summarises the manufacturer's calculations and in-application checks used to define its lifetime.

www.xppower.com

https://www.eetimes.com/power-tip-50-avoid-these-common-aluminum-electrolytic-capacitor-pitfalls/

Calculating the Lifespan of Aluminum Electrolytic Capacitors with De-Rating

Capacitors

passive-components.eu

Yes, this is a bit simplified and military research indicates 10 degrees C is a rule of thumb. They found depending upon particulars, like voltage applied etc. it can be more than the rule of thumb or less.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Most are probably wasting hundreds of watts. I measured just my TV (HT) setup. 60W with everything in standby (Mostly from a sub that doesn't. I've bought a wifi switch for the whole thing and it gets turned off when not in use now.

Overall in the process I've taken nearly 200W out of my base load.

I don't use a TV, but have a projector. A recent one with LED light sources rather than bulbs. It has setting for Standby when off (claimed .5 watts, but I measured 7 watts) or actually being off (0 watts). In standby it comes on 15 to 20 seconds sooner. I set it for actually off.

I do have a trickle charger for an extra vehicle. I have it on a timer. It runs 2.5 hrs per week which is just enough to keep the battery topped up with a bit extra. Have chargers for some battery powered lawn equipment. I only plug them in for charging and then unplug them when done. I just don't have much wasted power.

Things were worse a decade ago, but lots of newer gear even in standby is not a big waster of power. I have older stuff, not everything is new, but that gear is on when needed and off otherwise. I have an older class D power amp which draws 15 watts idling, but it is only on when in use.

 

[MaxwellsEq]

Going back to the OP's question...

I don't think there is an absolute answer to whether to leave it powered or not. From a purely environmental point of view, everything should be switched off when not in use, even if it has a very smart standby mode. This is the closest you can get to a yes/no answer.

Almost all power supply designs pull an inrush current on startup. This can be high, but for a very short space of time. This current causes strain on the components, which is why if anything is marginal, things fall on switch on. Leaving kit on avoids this impact and type of failure. Good designs can significantly mitigate this risk.

On the other hand, some components fail because they been used for a very long time. Tubes, for example (and stylus) have a limited lifetime compared to all the components in a device.

For years I left my audio equipment on all the time. I had no failures. More recently, I turn it off when not in use. So far, I've not had any failures.

 

[Sokel]

I wouldn't be comfortable at all leaving my power amps on all the time.
They do have stby feature (after 13 min of no signal) but before I go to sleep everything is turned of.
Same with the electronic Xover,pre,dac, and phono pre (the later has separate PSU)
There on during the day but they go off at night or when out of the house.

 

[lina146]

Heat gradually destroys electronic components. Purchase equipment with auto-OFF or turn it off. After five minutes of idleness, my DAC shuts off. Since I use the amp almost constantly and it is located behind my monitor, it is always on. Imagine that we take 1000 PICs (ICs), attach them to electricity, and output data from the PICs as we bake them in a 175C oven until only 15% of them are still functional. This process would take at most one night to complete. Therefore, if we can damage 85% of the ICs in a few minutes to overnight at 175C, it will undoubtedly have an impact on electronics after years of weathering 85C.

 

[Berwhale]

Based upon my monthly average electric bill the vampire power is right about 1% of my total usage.

You're lucky...

This does include things like a fridge-freeze, a 2nd freezer, a couple of Synology NAS, micro PC server, micro PC firewall, 3 wireless access points, 4 network switches, 12 Amazon Echos Dots/Shows, a few night lights, etc.

BTW, that cost is incorrect because my 'smart' electricity meter currently refuses to talk to my electricity provider and has not had it's rates updated to reflect the price rise at the beginning of November - the true figure would be close to £1000, so there is quite an incentive to reduce my base load.

I think the fridge-freezer is the biggest single contributor (86W is the current consumption, but it looks like it's averaging somewhere between 50-60W)...

 

[Blumlein 88]

You're lucky...

View attachment 242425

This does include things like a fridge-freeze, a 2nd freezer, a couple of Synology NAS, micro PC server, micro PC firewall, 3 wireless access points, 4 network switches, 12 Amazon Echos Dots/Shows, a few night lights, etc.

BTW, that cost is incorrect because my 'smart' electricity meter currently refuses to talk to my electricity provider and has not had it's rates updated to reflect the price rise at the beginning of November - the true figure would be close to £1000, so there is quite an incentive to reduce my base load.

I think the fridge-freezer is the biggest single contributor (86W is the current consumption, but it looks like it's averaging somewhere between 50-60W)...

View attachment 242429

I don't consider a freezer or fridge vampire usage. Nor my wireless router.

 

[LuvTheMusic]

I wouldn't be comfortable at all leaving my power amps on all the time.

They do have stby feature (after 13 min of no signal) but before I go to sleep everything is turned of.
Same with the electronic Xover,pre,dac, and phono pre (the later has separate PSU)
There on during the day but they go off at night or when out of the house.

I'm surprised that no one else raised this point. When I'm not listening, my kit is powered down and the power strip is turned off. No chance of the obvious issue: something in a component fails and the resulting cascade does anything from turning an isolated part failure into a complete bit of destruction, up to starting a fire and burning down the house. Or more likely our cat sticks her nose into things and disaster ensues.

Unlikely? Sure. Impossible? No. (And yes, I have some -- an -- experience in this area.)

 

[Sokel]

I wouldn't be comfortable at all leaving my power amps on all the time.


I'm surprised that no one else raised this point. When I'm not listening, my kit is powered down and the power strip is turned off. No chance of the obvious issue: something in a component fails and the resulting cascade does anything from turning an isolated part failure into a complete bit of destruction, up to starting a fire and burning down the house. Or more likely our cat sticks her nose into things and disaster ensues.

Unlikely? Sure. Impossible? No. (And yes, I have some -- an -- experience in this area.)

I don't even want to imagine a failure up the chain causing nearly 2KW waking me up in the middle of the night with a 50Hz signal in all its glory.
Last time I saw my heart doctor said I'm ok,I want to tell me the same in my next exam.

 

[Neddy]

40 comments on On vs Off? Remarkable.
When I ran QC for a major electronics (startup), once they got to the point where batch production made sense (they discovered that 'having stock available for shipping at 5pm on a Friday' increased sales and customer satisfaction noticeably), I insisted that they start burning finished products in for 3 days.
Even without monitors we could run cues on start up that had their LED bargraphs running (when boot didn't fail). They had an EnGineer make up a cycling timer which ran them for an hour or so, then re-powered them.
Of course, the marketing/sales guys just Loved all da blinking lights esp on factory tours (basically a full wall of shelving holding running consoles 24x7, so 20-30 at a time), so rather than just the 3 days, they left them running all the time.
Eventually my (new) concerns about overdoing the burn in time were self resolved as production demand increased to the point where product rarely stayed on the shelf for 3 days (and after a while I reduced the burn in requirement to 1 day or such).

Weirdly, even as the company grew by leaps and bounds, the ability to 'ship on demand' as late as Fedex was able to pick up and sail away (many of the consoles had custom interfaces depending on customer) continued to be a major customer satisfaction point not to mention profitability. That company eventually replaced its #1, 2 and 3 competitors completely.
Today, Litter-Robot customer service kind of reminds me of what I had in place back then.

ANYWAY - with quite a few years of experience with that system (it was my job to fix any that stopped working), I can say that even rapid cycling like that (the power supplies rarely got a chance to cool down all the way - dont remember what the cycle time was now) failures were extremely rare, and most often were bad caps in the (early generation of) switching power supplies, which was common in those days. That and the occasional bad tantalum cap (the ones accidently installed backwards announed themselve spectactulary on first power up).
So, except for the PC (products with lengthy reboot times, or very complex fussy software are the one major exception) I power down all my gear when not in use.
I monitored (via Sense system) the idle power consumption, and with 3 (class D) power amps, a DAC and Venu and fans+controller) it all added up to around 400watts at idle. I figure that's enough to warrant shutting down when not in use.
I do get a tiny click from the HF amp at turn on, but the drivers are well protected by passive xovers, so not a concern.
It DOES take a good couple of minutes for All That Gack to wake up and settle down (esp the Venu), but that's not a concern for me.

Do as you wish - it's your gear, this is my just my experience.