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Turn off or not to turn off?

Berwhale

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I don't consider a freezer or fridge vampire usage. Nor my wireless router.

Me neither, but it's part of your base load which is a good thing to minimize. So I'm agreeing with about the vampire stuff not being the major part of your power consumption, although if you can remove several 'vampire' devices, it does start to add up.
 

Digby

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I searched and read a thread somewhat concerning turning off gear or not and debating tempature norms for best working ability of different equipment. I didn't see a clear answer whether or not it is best for longevity to turn off a DAC, Pre-amp, Amp, Streamer? Does anyone leave one or all of these components on all the time?

Yes they come with on/off switches but my amp switch is in a hard to reach place getting me to consider not ever turning if off unless away for a long period of time. The Pre and Dac have easy front placed on/off's. The Lumin streamer is like the amp with hard to reach switch.

Thank you in advance.
JH
You can leave it on, but it is wasting your money/electricity.

I can think of two options:

1: A manual timer plug, if you know you won't be using between certain hours.
2. A smart plug - everything can be plugged into this and turned on/off a necessary. They have a standby usage of around 0.25w to 3w, but this will be lower than leaving equipment in non-standby modes. It is much more flexible than a timer.
This does include things like a fridge-freeze, a 2nd freezer, a couple of Synology NAS, micro PC server, micro PC firewall, 3 wireless access points, 4 network switches, 12 Amazon Echos Dots/Shows, a few night lights, etc.
Are you lucky enough to live on a country estate or do you just have a 'thing' for electronic stuff? (no judgement intended)

Personally, I'd be running cables and removing/consolidating as much of that equipment as feasible. What do you do with 12 Echo/Dots? I'm not sure I know what I'd do with one, but then I don't have any home automation.

I don't consider a freezer or fridge vampire usage. Nor my wireless router.
This depends. The stuff that runs 24/7 is the stuff that will cost you in the long run, if it is inefficient. You can have a router that will use 3 or 4 watts typical or a fancy Wi-Fi 6 router that eats 40 watts or more. For energy efficiency, we should try to run only what we need, with regards to features - fewer features usually meaning lower power consumption.

The difference in cost between a router pulling 4 watts and one pulling 12 watts over 5 years (typical router lifespan) would be £120 at current UK electric prices. Multiply this by x amount of other 24/7 gadgets and it is money down the drain, if purchasing more efficient/less capable equipment would suffice.
 

Blumlein 88

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You can leave it on, but it is wasting your money/electricity.

I can think of two options:

1: A manual timer plug, if you know you won't be using between certain hours.
2. A smart plug - everything can be plugged into this and turned on/off a necessary. They have a standby usage of around 0.25w to 3w, but this will be lower than leaving equipment in non-standby modes. It is much more flexible than a timer.

Are you lucky enough to live on a country estate or do you just have a 'thing' for electronic stuff? (no judgement intended)

Personally, I'd be running cables and removing/consolidating as much of that equipment as feasible. What do you do with 12 Echo/Dots? I'm not sure I know what I'd do with one, but then I don't have any home automation.


This depends. The stuff that runs 24/7 is the stuff that will cost you in the long run, if it is inefficient. You can have a router that will use 3 or 4 watts typical or a fancy Wi-Fi 6 router that eats 40 watts or more. For energy efficiency, we should try to run only what we need, with regards to features - fewer features usually meaning lower power consumption.

The difference in cost between a router pulling 4 watts and one pulling 12 watts over 5 years (typical router lifespan) would be £120 at current UK electric prices. Multiply this by x amount of other 24/7 gadgets and it is money down the drain, if purchasing more efficient/less capable equipment would suffice.
No.

Can agree vampire usage and base load are two different things? Otherwise apples and oranges.

Otherwise less is less and more is more. Is that supposed to be insightful?

Using your router example cost over 5 years is less than $50 for me. After considering cost of new router it would not be advantageous to replace it too quickly. Plus my router is more of the 5 watt variety.

I can figure this out. My monthly electrical cost is $125 average. My home is total electric. So that is my home's total energy cost to me. Some will be more and some less. I would be heavily solar, but the local government has made that economically useless with fees and other regulations.

If you have the idea I don't care about energy use then you've not been paying attention. Vampire drain is peanuts and not a place to be overly worried.
 

Digby

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Can agree vampire usage and base load are two different things? Otherwise apples and oranges.

Otherwise less is less and more is more. Is that supposed to be insightful?
Do you have to be unnecessarily abrupt? If you take a step back, I think you can see the point I'm making.

Language is hardly an exact science, but I would consider running equipment that is providing functionality beyond what one needs (typically consuming more electricity) something akin to a vampire load. Can you proffer a better term?

Using your router example cost over 5 years is less than $50 for me. After considering cost of new router it would not be advantageous to replace it too quickly. Plus my router is more of the 5 watt variety.

I can figure this out. My monthly electrical cost is $125 average. My home is total electric. So that is my home's total energy cost to me. Some will be more and some less. I would be heavily solar, but the local government has made that economically useless with fees and other regulations.
You have the good fortune, at least as far as energy prices are concerned, to live in the US. In parts of Europe some people are, at certain times, paying up to 1 euro per KWh. Incredible prices. This doesn't apply to you, but I did preface my statement with 'this depends', making it a general statement, not a response to your situation in particular.

If you have the idea I don't care about energy use then you've not been paying attention. Vampire drain is peanuts and not a place to be overly worried.
My response was to what you wrote, because you seemed to be suggesting that loads of a certain type (yet to be accurately named) were immaterial. This may be the case in the US, but elsewhere certainly not.

Maybe a third term is necessary for running equipment which overprovides on functions (for x individual), yet consumes more electricity in doing so. This is obviously some kind of wastage.

I haven't paid much, if any attention, to what you are doing personally. I'm sure you care about energy usage, but I can understand why it would be less pressing for you to do so than someone in the UK/EU. My response was to you saying this:

"I don't consider a freezer or fridge vampire usage. Nor my wireless router."

In a US centric way, you're correct, but with regards to Europe any wastage, including from running equipment that provides excess functionality at the expense of higher energy consumption, is likely costly and could benefit from being addressed.
 
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Berwhale

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Are you lucky enough to live on a country estate or do you just have a 'thing' for electronic stuff? (no judgement intended)

Personally, I'd be running cables and removing/consolidating as much of that equipment as feasible. What do you do with 12 Echo/Dots? I'm not sure I know what I'd do with one, but then I don't have any home automation.

No, errr, yes (I also work in IT) and none taken!

l, hence the 4 network switches. All of the mesh wi-fi APs have wired backhaul (2 APs cover the house, one is in the garage and covers the garden as well. I have Echo Dots or Shows in almost every room in the house (and garage). They are used for...

Listening to music and radio (I have Echo Dots mounted to the ceiling the bathrooms where they work very well :)).
Intercom between rooms in the house (i.e. getting my son out of his room for dinner downstair, or me in from the garage)
Video calls with friends and family.
They're my doorbell chimes and video screens for the front door camera and internal camera for keeping an eye on our puppies.
Voice command for home automation - internal/external lights, central heating, hot water, etc.
Asking Alexa things.

I have been trying to consolidate and reduce the number of devices (for simplicity and power & cost saving). I recently upgraded the APs to Wifi6 (802.11AX) which enabled my to drop from 4 down to 3 APs. I also reconfigured my comms and study and removed another switch from the network.
 

Digby

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Hmm, I could comment about what you might change, but I imagine once you get used to that kind of thing, it is hard to go back. I have suggestions, but you've probably thought of and discounted them already. I must say I've never thought of listening to music in the bathroom, have you always done that or did that come with automation?

I suppose it is all a question of convenience vs cost.

One thought, can't these "a couple of Synology NAS, micro PC server, micro PC firewall" be rolled into one or staggered, such that some/most of it is in standby much of the time?
 

Berwhale

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I must say I've never thought of listening to music in the bathroom, have you always done that or did that come with automation?

For years, I kept a DAB radio in our en-suite bathroom to listen to the radio in the morning, however, I get a poor DAB signal where I live so the sound would drop occasionally. The Echo Dot replaced the DAB radio and it also tells me the time when i'm in the shower (useful for someone like me who wears spectacles!). The kids like to have music when they're in the bath and the wife listens to podcasts on it.

I suppose it is all a question of convenience vs cost.

Of course, none of this is essential, it's just nice to have (until the cost becomes an issue!)

One thought, can't these "a couple of Synology NAS, micro PC server, micro PC firewall" be rolled into one or staggered, such that some/most of it is in standby much of the time?

On the contrary, separating the functions on to multiple devices allows them so sleep independently and save more power...

Previously, I ran multiple virtual machines on a single PC server, but the disks would never spin down because something or other would always be accessing them.

The 2nd NAS backups up the 1st one, so it's sleeping most of the time (to be fair, I backed up the PC server in a similar way with an older Synology NAS).

I avoid using RAID on the NASes so the disks can spin down independently.

The micro PC is my new virtual machine host (Vmware ESXi), the low power 9th gen i3 CPU in it is faster than the Xeon in the old server (equiv. 4th gen i5) and consumes far less power. The micro PC is also a fraction of the size of the server (1L chassis) and makes virtually no noise.
 

Blumlein 88

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Do you have to be unnecessarily abrupt? If you take a step back, I think you can see the point I'm making.

Language is hardly an exact science, but I would consider running equipment that is providing functionality beyond what one needs (typically consuming more electricity) something akin to a vampire load. Can you proffer a better term?


You have the good fortune, at least as far as energy prices are concerned, to live in the US. In parts of Europe some people are, at certain times, paying up to 1 euro per KWh. Incredible prices. This doesn't apply to you, but I did preface my statement with 'this depends', making it a general statement, not a response to your situation in particular.


My response was to what you wrote, because you seemed to be suggesting that loads of a certain type (yet to be accurately named) were immaterial. This may be the case in the US, but elsewhere certainly not.

Maybe a third term is necessary for running equipment which overprovides on functions (for x individual), yet consumes more electricity in doing so. This is obviously some kind of wastage.

I haven't paid much, if any attention, to what you are doing personally. I'm sure you care about energy usage, but I can understand why it would be less pressing for you to do so than someone in the UK/EU. My response was to you saying this:

"I don't consider a freezer or fridge vampire usage. Nor my wireless router."

In a US centric way, you're correct, but with regards to Europe any wastage, including from running equipment that provides excess functionality at the expense of higher energy consumption, is likely costly and could benefit from being addressed.

Vampire electricity is rather specific. It is the energy use that continues in devices that are not in use or appear to be turned off. The flat panel smart TV that is off, but may draw 10 watts (in a couple cases 60 watts). The phone charger without a phone may draw a few watts, ditto for laptop chargers. The usage of displays on devices not otherwise in use. Things like game consoles, AVRs, active speakers etc etc which are in standby or appear to be off and continue sucking juice.

So no freezers are not electricity vampires. If your freezer has a display then that part of it could be considered vampire electricity, but not the part from running a freezer to keep it cool. My router, well it isn't practical to use it by turning it on and off whenver I'm going to be on the internet. So I wouldn't consider that vampire use either.

So all the stuff you are referring to is apples and oranges. Vampire electricity is part of base load, but not base load.

Yes, every watt saved counts, but vampire electricity is way down the list of important things. Changing thermostats half a degree is a vastly larger difference. Now some sources even the link I list above show scary things like vampire electricity can be 10% of some homes or even 20%. Ah.....no almost never. Some reasonable attempts to come up with amounts have placed it around 1% for 1st world countries. Newer gear is designed more carefully to reduce that amount as well. So 1% isn't nothing, but again not something at the forefront of battling climate change or reducing your bill. It is rather down the list of things worth doing.

There is no need for a third term, those other conditions you refer to are wastage and/or inefficiency. A freezer which is too large or inefficient is wastage, but it isn't vampire electricity.
 
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Digby

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There is no need for a third term, those other conditions you refer to are wastage and/or inefficiency. A freezer which is too large or inefficient is wastage, but it isn't vampire electricity.
Most people don't understand that two products that do the same thing can use rather different amounts of energy to do so. I doubt many consumers know that one router can consume many multiples the electricity another does. This applies to many products.

If I save a few watts here, it isn't effecting conditions in Europe and vice versa. Yes, every watt saved counts, but vampire electricity is way down the list of important things. Changing thermostats half a degree is a vastly larger difference.
This really depends on how well insulated your home is and how much electricity you're already using.

True vampire usage may be low, but a high base load may be made 20% or more lower by using more energy efficient/lower powered products. This would entail buying something new and recouping energy savings over time.

You'd be surprised how few people understand this. It is really isn't obvious to most people.
 

Mr. Widget

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Most people don't understand that two products that do the same thing can use rather different amounts of energy to do so. I doubt many consumers know that one router can consume many multiples the electricity another does. This applies to many products.
Since we like charts and graphs... here is a simple graph showing the relative power consumption of my entirely Class D powered purely digital secondary system and my entirely analog and mostly Class A primary system. Both systems are tri-amplified and have extremely high SPL capabilities, though both are rarely pushed to levels above 90-95 dBC.

The initial part of the chart between midnight and about 6:30 AM shows vampire power use plus my modem, router, switch, WAPs, NAS drives, and a single refrigerator. Between 6:30 AM and about 11:00 AM the house is brought to life making breakfast etc. At about 11:00 the second spike and continued high power usage is my primary stereo system. As you can see it draws as much power as a toaster oven on full. (It also heats up the room!) From Noon on the primary analog and Class A system is shut off and I moved to the secondary Class D system playing the same content at approximately the same SPL level.

FWIW: I turn off both systems... except for the previously mentioned phono stage.
 

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Digby

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breakfast etc. At about 11:00 the second spike and continued high power usage is my primary stereo system. As you can see it draws as much power as a toaster oven on full. (It also heats up the room!) From Noon on the primary analog and Class A system is shut off and I moved to the secondary Class D system playing the same content at approximately the same SPL level.
Have you calculated the cost of this over the year? Do you notice any benefits from Class A amplifiers compared to Class D?

Of course, none of this is essential, it's just nice to have (until the cost becomes an issue!)
Have you considered PIR sensors for lighting? Children and others will tend to leave lights on, which could add up over time. Hallways, garage, kitchen & bathrooms may benefit from this. Also, you could swap to low wattage bulbs (2w or 3w), which wouldn't matter as much if they're left on. I tend to find lighting wattage can be diminishing returns (6w doesn't appear twice as bright as 3w), so maybe some savings to be had here?

The 2nd NAS backups up the 1st one, so it's sleeping most of the time (to be fair, I backed up the PC server in a similar way with an older Synology NAS).
Could the 1st NAS be changed to something like a Pi + attached 5TB USB drive or do you need access to larger storage immediately, at all times?

What kind of base level do you think is feasible for you? £1000 a year base load seems high to me. 3 or 4 years worth would be a car for one kid, not that it is possible to reduce to zero, but still...
 
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Palladium

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Is there any reliability data to NTC inrush limiting resistors in power supplies? Seems to me like they will be the first in line to fail to frequent on/off cycles.
 

antcollinet

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Is there any reliability data to NTC inrush limiting resistors in power supplies? Seems to me like they will be the first in line to fail to frequent on/off cycles.
Depends on the selection of NTC. If it is correctly designed for inrush applications then it will be capable of absorbing the heat transients indefinitely with little risk of failure. Bear in mind also that an NTC in an inrush application is continuously at it's high temperature while the device is on.

If a more general (eg temp sensing) device is used, then... all bets are off.

Same with recifier diodes. If you use diodes specifically designed for mains rectification then they will have a pulse peak current rating making them suitable for inrush applications. Not so much with general purpose signal diodes - even if the continuous rating is sufficient.

Like everything else it comes down to competent design and component selection.
 

Berwhale

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Have you considered PIR sensors for lighting? Children and others will tend to leave lights on, which could add up over time. Hallways, garage, kitchen & bathrooms may benefit from this. Also, you could swap to low wattage bulbs (2w or 3w), which wouldn't matter as much if they're left on. I tend to find lighting wattage can be diminishing returns (6w doesn't appear twice as bright as 3w), so maybe some savings to be had here?
I switched to LED lighting everywhere in the house several years ago. I do have a few light sensing (rechargeable) battery operated LED lights around the house to avoid having to switch main lights on in the middle of the night (e.g. in bathrooms).

Could the 1st NAS be changed to something like a Pi + attached 5TB USB drive or do you need access to larger storage immediately, at all times?

Power draw of my main NAS (Synology DS920+) is pretty low when the disks are spun down (which is be a significant amount of the time)...

Power Consumption*32.17 W (Access)
9.69 W (HDD Hibernation)

My 2nd NAS is a DS420+ which has a slower, less power hungry CPU...

Power Consumption*28.30 W (Access)
8.45 W (HDD Hibernation)

What kind of base level do you think is feasible for you? £1000 a year base load seems high to me. 3 or 4 years worth would be a car for one kid, not that it is possible to reduce to zero, but still...

I can afford it, but it doesn't mean I want to pay it! (hence my recent focus on reducing my consumption). The car analogy is apt as my daughter just received her provisional license!
 

Mr. Widget

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Have you calculated the cost of this over the year? Do you notice any benefits from Class A amplifiers compared to Class D?
The power plot I shared is from the app I use to manage my solar panels and batteries. I rarely buy electricity from the grid, I paid for my electricity on the front end.

Regarding Class A vs. Class D. The two systems are so different I really can't compare them and since all of the Class D amps I have are purpose built for their respective speakers with factory integrated DSP etc. I couldn't compare them.

It would be interesting to borrow some quality Class D amps and insert them into the system. I may tackle that at some point.

Regarding subjective differences in power amps, a few years ago I did spend several weeks double blind testing a pair of Parasound JC-1s against a pair of Halcro DM-68 amps. With the particular speakers I was using I was able to consistently pick the different amps. The Parasounds had a slightly fatter bottom end and more pleasant sound on those speakers. The Halcros were leaner and slightly brighter sounding.

In retrospect it would have been interesting to measure the acoustic output of the two amps through the speakers, but I didn't.
 

Digby

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Power draw of my main NAS (Synology DS920+) is pretty low when the disks are spun down (which is be a significant amount of the time)...

Power Consumption*32.17 W (Access)
9.69 W (HDD Hibernation)

My 2nd NAS is a DS420+ which has a slower, less power hungry CPU...

Power Consumption*28.30 W (Access)
8.45 W (HDD Hibernation)
Right, but when the disks are spun down you are left with essentially a paperweight. If we assume 30watts draw on average over the two NAS (perhaps it is higher), then over a year this will cost £90. The same usage at 5 watts average, raspberry pi + usb hdd, will be about £15. That is £75 saved there (backups would be scheduled to the NAS, I presume it has wake on LAN functionality). This approach applied to other things maybe be able to see base load perhaps halved, but you'll probably have to go without some gadgets/functionality/ease of use. How much are you looking to save?

For instance, the things you use the Amazon echo dots for, I could suggest other ways to achieve that. 12 dots alone probably account for about £100 a year, that is no small amount of money, but whether it is worth giving up convenience for is up to you.

£75 isn't much, but added to £100 for the dots, then money from other places, you might be able to reach £300-400 reduction, which is nothing to sniff at.
 

Suffolkhifinut

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No.

Can agree vampire usage and base load are two different things? Otherwise apples and oranges.

Otherwise less is less and more is more. Is that supposed to be insightful?

Using your router example cost over 5 years is less than $50 for me. After considering cost of new router it would not be advantageous to replace it too quickly. Plus my router is more of the 5 watt variety.

I can figure this out. My monthly electrical cost is $125 average. My home is total electric. So that is my home's total energy cost to me. Some will be more and some less. I would be heavily solar, but the local government has made that economically useless with fees and other regulations.

If you have the idea I don't care about energy use then you've not been paying attention. Vampire drain is peanuts and not a place to be overly worried.
As others have said power it down. Due to the increase in electrical energy costs all our heating is now on individual timers, better than central thermostatic control. Every couple of days reduced the timer settings until we went past what was comfortable then took the setting up a notch. Keep a record of our electrical consumption and we are using far less this year.
 

Berwhale

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Right, but when the disks are spun down you are left with essentially a paperweight. If we assume 30watts draw on average over the two NAS (perhaps it is higher), then over a year this will cost £90. The same usage at 5 watts average, raspberry pi + usb hdd, will be about £15. That is £75 saved there (backups would be scheduled to the NAS, I presume it has wake on LAN functionality). This approach applied to other things maybe be able to see base load perhaps halved, but you'll probably have to go without some gadgets/functionality/ease of use. How much are you looking to save?

For instance, the things you use the Amazon echo dots for, I could suggest other ways to achieve that. 12 dots alone probably account for about £100 a year, that is no small amount of money, but whether it is worth giving up convenience for is up to you.

£75 isn't much, but added to £100 for the dots, then money from other places, you might be able to reach £300-400 reduction, which is nothing to sniff at.

I have solid state, NVMe drives (configured for apps and data) as well as HDDs (which just store data) in both my NAS. They do not become paperweights when the HDDs spin down.

The combined power draw of both units is under 20 watts when the HDDs are spun down, not sure where you got 30W from.

My base load is around 340 watts, it's not going to be halved by swapping out one of my Synology NAS with a Raspberry Pi.

A Raspberry Pi is not performant enough for my purposes (I do own a couple).

Sure, I could probably save a little more by turning off some of the Echo devices around the house. But we do use them and there are other considerations which I won't go into here.

I'm not looking to save a specific amount. It's just good practice to review your energy consumption periodically and look for areas where it can be reduced. I've been doing this for well over 10 years, I had a Current Cost meter connected to Pachube in 2009 :)
 
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