Topping E70 Stereo DAC Review

[morillon]

hold a sensitive topic...

so of course technically we can now go from "lossy".
is it reasonable to do so in the name of "I want to be at the top ultra and co" when many recognize in a low voice that they do not really perceive any differences.. (or just stick to a flac 44 48k 24bits...)

while large impacts listed .. ecological in storage, need for transmission volumes etc for streaming use
?


aouch aouch...
..

 

[Overseas]

Topping job is to develop and make stuff.
If their products lineup does not make sense (anymore), that's the fault of the sellers.
I ordered my E50 online from a local seller, from a page showing zillions of DAC's. I wonder how on the earth that shop sells anything at all. I could not refer a friend to that site, it would be meaningless.
Like you or me entering to McD and being indiscriminately exposed to their full list of 999 type of burgers. Finally, we end up asking what we had before or what we see the guy in front of us is taking.

 

[thin bLue]

w o w
Look at that Trigger!!!!!! YEAH!

 

[Koeitje]

Quite apart from sound quality issues, I question the "convenience" of bluetooth.

"Plug in" Bluetooth? Precisely how is bluetooth from TV to speakers more convenient than, say, an optical cable to a DAC to your (amplifier or powered) speakers?
I have only bad experiences with bluetooth using my phone as a source. It gets confused if you try to pair with a different device (from headphone to speaker for example), its connection drops when the sleeve of your phone is not the right material or if you move around the house, the battery of your phone drains quickly, ...

The only (very short) issues I get are at a very crowded train station. Apart from that I have zero issues. Phone drains? Bluetooth uses less power than driving headphones straight from the phone, especially if you use a dongle.

 

[Endibol]

What is your definition of perfection? We have been past audibility for some time.

Good question. You are right, certainly for DAC’s. That‘s why I agree with some members who ask for a race towards more functionality instead of better SINAD.
I guess that the definition of perfection needs to entail many different aspects (those that Amir always tests for DAC’s for instance).
I think there are some threads on this forum that discuss this question.

 

[JanesJr1]

As far as Ldac is concerned: I listen through it almost every day and can savely say that through Genelec 8030's at 1 meter the difference between streaming losslessly and Ldac is negligable, or non-existend.

What I'm saying is that I'd probably fail on a double blind test or have a very hard time.

I use LDAC and it's pretty good except low bass. Before I knew that LF extension is a limitation of bluetooth, when I first tried it, I heard disappearing sub-bass frequencies on familiar music, and in some cases, very audible low bass distortion (perhaps at the LF boundary?). I researched bluetooth, and found the issue described. My Topping DAC uses LDAC to my PC/streamer, and LF extension is noticeably limited compared to wired USB. For some music, without deep bass, no problem at all.

PS I have planar phones with level bass extension down to 20Hz, so that probably helps to highlight the missing frequencies.

PPS I read that there is also a high-frequency roll off for LDAC as well, but at my age, I can't hear high enough to tell if it's there. I've also read that a haze-like noise can appear at high SPL's (esp >90 dB), but I haven't tried to find that. But I'm curious if anyone has researched this more than my casual effort...

[EDIT - my comment about LF rolloff for LDAC is wrong. See my post #340 below.]

 

[pseudoid]

Circa 1960s: Audio cassette magnetic tapes were introduced for recording dictations (voice only) on-the-go. It matured into "HiFi" quality that many of us in the 1970s appreciated because it was the dawn of music transportability.
Circa 1970s: LiquidCrystalDisplays (LCDs) were introduced to replace analog watches. It matured into "HiDef" Televisions that many of us are staring at right now, while reading this.
Is this the wishful thinking of some who need BT connected audio devices -- that BT will mature into something awesome?? Why Bother? Alternatives abound.
I assume the lack of WiFi connectivity feature (rather than BT, or in addition to BT) on the Topping E70 may have been a mgmt. decision to save costs? [imo - unwise]

 

[xaxxon]

Another day, another W for Topping

Another W for a topping DAC.

Amps on the other hand RIP pa5. Theoretical performance doesn't matter if your amp is broken.

 

[Marc v E]

I use LDAC and it's pretty good except low bass. Before I knew that LF extension is a limitation of bluetooth, when I first tried it, I heard disappearing sub-bass frequencies on familiar music, and in some cases, very audible low bass distortion (perhaps at the LF boundary?). I researched bluetooth, and found the issue described. My Topping DAC uses LDAC to my PC/streamer, and LF extension is noticeably limited compared to wired USB. For some music, without deep bass, no problem at all.

PS I have planar phones with level bass extension down to 20Hz, so that probably helps to highlight the missing frequencies.

PPS I read that there is also a high-frequency roll off for LDAC as well, but at my age, I can't hear high enough to tell if it's there. I've also read that a haze-like noise can appear at high SPL's (esp >90 dB), but I haven't tried to find that. But I'm curious if anyone has researched this more than my casual effort...

Do you have a link to where that is claimed? About the roll off or distortion I mean. What I read suggests there is no roll off of frequencies in ldac, but a subdivision in max 16 audio bands. When using high res, bit depth is used at each band to achieve a level that is is transparent to human hearing. Cd quality through ldac should be the same after ldac, according to Sony.

For example 1source I found: https://www.androidauthority.com/sony-ldac-codec-790690/

 

[xaxxon]

With this kind of "near perfection" gear we are getting closer to the end of our hobby. The fun will be over soon.

There's always room for discussion about speakers. Honestly I think it's nice to be able to remove more and more variables from the equation though. Get a transparent dac and amp and then get speakers you think make them sound good.

And if you're absolutely masochistic, you can always use vinyl.

 

[Sokel]

With this kind of "near perfection" gear we are getting closer to the end of our hobby. The fun will be over soon.

The end of our hobby will come when only 2 clicks will be needed for listening to something close to the source or taste.
One for ON and another one for selecting the playlist (3 if someone is picky).


No need for measurements except for the first time,nice looks that integrate with our environment,rock solid performance for years,no need for the help of the ASR distinguished technical members,hustle free after sale support,upgreabillitty,flexibility to the size and shape of rooms,etc.

Maybe then,and that's a big if.

 

[MAB]

The end of our hobby will come when only 2 clicks will be needed for listening to something close to the source or taste.

This is why the VCR failed.

 

[TNT]

No they do not.

....

The graph starts at 20 Hz and goes to 20 kHz (full audible band). To with, hose spikes you see at the start are in the signal and are at multiples of 250 Hz.

As to USB and jitter, the interface clock itself is not used. But DAC internal activity can still generate jitter on its own. This is why I still measure USB jitter.

Doh! Yes of course not 1k - sorry - my bad.

//

 

[Tangband]

I use LDAC and it's pretty good except low bass. Before I knew that LF extension is a limitation of bluetooth, when I first tried it, I heard disappearing sub-bass frequencies on familiar music, and in some cases, very audible low bass distortion (perhaps at the LF boundary?). I researched bluetooth, and found the issue described. My Topping DAC uses LDAC to my PC/streamer, and LF extension is noticeably limited compared to wired USB. For some music, without deep bass, no problem at all.

PS I have planar phones with level bass extension down to 20Hz, so that probably helps to highlight the missing frequencies.

PPS I read that there is also a high-frequency roll off for LDAC as well, but at my age, I can't hear high enough to tell if it's there. I've also read that a haze-like noise can appear at high SPL's (esp >90 dB), but I haven't tried to find that. But I'm curious if anyone has researched this more than my casual effort...

Yes, LDAC has some audible limitations that everyone can hear if they have a revealing system, and is slightly worse sounding than AirPlay, because LDAC is a lossy transmission protocol. And in turn, 24 bit 96 kHz source material is slightly better sounding than Airplay on many recordings. Everyone who does their own recordings with highend gear can agree on that. ( I do ) .

 

[antcollinet]

Thanks.
This tests are missleading because real music is not a single 1 kHz test tone , it contains energy between 20 -20000 Hz at the same time with a lot of variations in the time domain.

The ” intelligent” coding used in ldac, bluetooth and mp3 uses the ears ”masking” effect - this measures VERY bad and has nothing to do with the original uncompressed music-file.

This ”intelligent” coding is also more than twice as worse if bluetooth and mp3 are connected in cascade.
I.e if its used at the same time.

So …. -1 -1 = -3

This is why lossy sound material and transmission never shall be used in serious hifi. There is no technical reason for it at 2022.

Have you considered doing that test I suggested? I’m pretty sure you‘ll learn something.

 

[Tangband]

Have you considered doing that test I suggested? I’m pretty sure you‘ll learn something.

I have done many tests like this through the years. The music will sound less fun to listening to in long therm use If there is lossy codecs or transmissions anywhere.

I wonder why people get so exited on this forum about high number SINAD Dacs, and at the same time are defending lossy material and lossy transmission protocols ? It doesnt make sence.

We should all celebrate high resolution recordings and playback , at least real 16 bit material without technical compromises, dont you agree ?

 

[Talisman]

I have done many tests like this through the years. The music will sound less fun to listening to in long therm use If there is lossy codecs or transmissions anywhere.

I wonder why people get so exited on this forum about high number SINAD Dacs, and at the same time are defending lossy material and lossy transmission protocols ? It doesnt make sence.

We should all celebrate high resolution recordings and playback , at least real 16 bit material without technical compromises, dont you agree ?

Because it's a forum for objectivists, and objectivists have a bad habit of testing their beliefs with objective tests.
It's not about defending lossy protocols, it's about deeply understanding the limits and boundaries of our perceptive abilities and stop perpetrating beliefs based on hearsay and old stereotypes.

 

[antcollinet]

Because it's a forum for objectivists, and objectivists have a bad habit of testing their beliefs with objective tests.
It's not about defending lossy protocols, it's about deeply understanding the limits and boundaries of our perceptive abilities and stop perpetrating beliefs based on hearsay and old stereotypes.

This - very much this.

 

[beefkabob]

getting tired of the new dac's and spec's. I love to listen to my music instead of reading charts and measurements........how 'bout you?.
It's nice to have a top of the charts dac. But in the end the only thing that counts is the end result , meaning : how does it sound?.

have a nice day

lulz...

The measurements tell you how it sounds.

 

[beefkabob]

is it just me getting tired of reading reviews of a new DAC and/or amp which measures slightly better than the previous model? But essentially the same? No new relevant feature that will pique my interest?

Disclosure: last DAC/amp combo I bought is the E50/L50 stack. No matter how better measurement-wise the products that came out after it, be it from topping or other brands completely just do not interest me.

Just a suggestion, (or more like my curiosity) why not look into adding streaming or wireless? Or venture into products like DAPs which I believe no one has done anything that measures as good as the the amps/dacs here.

Amirm reviews a variety of products. If you're bored of the DAC/amp reviews, stop reading them.