Topping D10s USB DAC and Bridge Review

[Jimbob54]

This has been discussed ad infinitum on this site. Do we really need another discussion on measurements etc.?

No. No we don't.

 

[Davide]

When it is said there is no worse deaf than those who do not want to hear ...

 

[Sukie]

When it is said there is no worse deaf than those who do not want to hear ...

I do thank you for your words but hope we can now move back on topic.

 

[BDWoody]

When it is said there is no worse deaf than those who do not want to hear ...

It's about actually being able to demonstrate what we claim to hear. It isn't about thinking of a DAC as a musical device. It isn't.

For those who claim to hear differences, we would like to see more than is typically provided. If you have more to back up the types of sonic differences you refer to, please provide it, otherwise this has been covered plenty. Let's move on now please.

 

[Mike B]

I've read most of these 22 pages now, I may have missed it but I have not seen it discussed: There are $150-$300 audiophile-targeted sound cards for PC's. Is there much (or any) difference between one of those and a Topping DAC? I realize many of the sound cards have headphone amps and some split the signal to make center channels, surround, etc. But for someone who only wants two channel is the external DAC connected via USB offering anything more or less than these sound cards?

 

[Jimbob54]

It's about actually being able to demonstrate what we claim to hear. It isn't about thinking of a DAC as a musical device. It isn't.

For those who claim to hear differences, we would like to see more than is typically provided. If you have more to back up the types of sonic differences you refer to, please provide it, otherwise this has been covered plenty. Let's move on now please.

Can we add transparent headamps to that list please.

 

[Veri]

I've read most of these 22 pages now, I may have missed it but I have not seen it discussed: There are $150-$300 audiophile-targeted sound cards for PC's. Is there much (or any) difference between one of those and a Topping DAC? I realize many of the sound cards have headphone amps and some split the signal to make center channels, surround, etc. But for someone who only wants two channel is the external DAC connected via USB offering anything more or less than these sound cards?

I do believe you're better off with a properly tested USB DAC. See for example Nu Audio, good but not exactly impressive.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...d-measurements-of-evga-nu-audio-pc-card.9137/

You are at the mercy of the PC PSU, PCIe bus etc for good performance. There are good performers, but secondly you will be at the mercy of the software package bundled with these brands. USB DAC/amp = just plug and play. Unless you want the "effects" for gaming, it's much less of a hassle to go with them rather a gaming sound card of the sort.

 

[Killingbeans]

Sorry in advance for indulging the off topic

For example, the phase of the frequencies is never measured (and with different opamp it changes, see datasheet).
The transients response is never measured (or non measurable) but it changes even just with different capacitors.
The Seebeck effect is never measured (or non measurable), but it exists.

All of those things have been discussed to death in numerous threads in here already. Just use the search function.

(Spoiler: Non of it is consequential)

The audio analyzer itself has its limits and uncertainties of measurement (any instrument has it, it is metrology).

Absolutely. But the limits and uncertainties are still miniscule compared to those you get from human hearing. It might not be perfect, but it's the best tool we got. It pushes the probability of gross error to a place where assumptions can be made without any significant risk.

In short, establishing an axiom on the audibility of electronics is not scientific ... just as it is not scientific to establish that the auditory perception of the human it is objective and not subjective.

Then we can just go around in circles for ever and ever

You need a baseline that can be moved when new evidence is presented, otherwise you'll get nowhere fast.

But most of all I don't understand why always criticizing oneself by hiding behind "science" rather than making constructive speeches or testing in first person ...

Cognitive bias. Again, there's a million discussions about it in here. Use the search function.

I repeat, according to some, a Chord Qutest sounds worse than a D10S because it measures worse ... it will be true, but listen to them and honestly say which one you like the most ... the answer is that the music is not just science.

I don't know who "some" are, but I think that most of the regulars in here wouldn't be surprised if a prober blind test showed them to sound exactly the same.

If not really, all the equipment and audio manufacturers in the world are scammers ...

Are you a scammer if you believe your own BS? Defenitely a discussion that belongs in another thread

But seriously, if you want to discuss all of these things, there's plenty of threads to dive into. Or you can make a new one.

Back to the D10s!

 

[jetson]

Hi all,

Newbie into digital audio here. Was originally looking into getting a streamer for a stereo setup. Originally was onto the Bluesound node 2i but after a lot of research i was led to Rpi-based systems that have more value, which leads me to my question

Which setup can get me the best sound? Rpi4 + D10s > spdif out to External DAC or Allo Digione Signature player >spdif out to external DAC?

 

[Zek]

Why not RPi4 > usb out > external DAC?

 

[jetson]

Why not RPi4 > usb out > external DAC?

I've heard that a USB output is prone to some form of jitter compared to a spdif out. Am i wrong in assuming this? I would also like to switch dacs from time to time and therefore like the idea of the spdif out

 

[somebodyelse]

You're wrong to assume that with the Pi 4. The earlier Pi models had an issue under certain circumstances that would cause clicks/pops via USB but not via hat DAC or spdif output boards. This isn't a problem on the Pi 4 which has a different USB subsystem to the earlier models. Even with the older ones I've never run into the issue when running PiCorePlayer despite having tried to provoke it. On Volumio I only ran into it when using the brutefir plugin, but the devs say it could happen without it too. Details in the Raspbian kernel bug report if you're interested - it's got some odd aspects!

USB audio driver compatibility would be a more justified concern if you'll be using a bunch of different DACs - while most DACs work fine with linux there are occasional problems with device quirks.

 

[jetson]

You're wrong to assume that with the Pi 4. The earlier Pi models had an issue under certain circumstances that would cause clicks/pops via USB but not via hat DAC or spdif output boards. This isn't a problem on the Pi 4 which has a different USB subsystem to the earlier models. Even with the older ones I've never run into the issue when running PiCorePlayer despite having tried to provoke it. On Volumio I only ran into it when using the brutefir plugin, but the devs say it could happen without it too. Details in the Raspbian kernel bug report if you're interested - it's got some odd aspects!

USB audio driver compatibility would be a more justified concern if you'll be using a bunch of different DACs - while most DACs work fine with linux there are occasional problems with device quirks.

Thank you so much for the info! In that case, should I just get a Pi 4 for streaming and not bother getting any of the products I mentioned since there wouldn't be any benefit from them? (aside from the onboard dac the D10s has)

 

[somebodyelse]

Thank you so much for the info! In that case, should I just get a Pi 4 for streaming and not bother getting any of the products I mentioned since there wouldn't be any benefit from them? (aside from the onboard dac the D10s has)

I'd start with the Pi 4 and see how you go - you can always add a hat for digital out later if you find you need it. If you get >1 SD card you can easily swap between the various software options to find the one that best fits your needs.

The other potential issue with USB (and it applies to almost everything with a USB output, not just the Pi) is noise due to ground loops and/or leakage currents. People often blame it on noisy USB power. I mention it in case you suffer and incorrectly blame the Pi. Toslink doesn't have this problem as there's no electrical connection, and SPDIF may not as there's sometimes a transformer at the source end to provide galvanic isolation (the black block behind the RCA connector on the HifiBerry Digi+ Pro that's missing on the Digi+).

 

[Sukie]

Thank you so much for the info! In that case, should I just get a Pi 4 for streaming and not bother getting any of the products I mentioned since there wouldn't be any benefit from them? (aside from the onboard dac the D10s has)

I run an RPi4 through a D10s and then on to active monitors. Works a treat.

 

[Green_X5]

Only opamps that I would remotely recommend are opa1612, opa1656. I also recommend just leave it as stock.

OPA1602? I have it in stock but worried about compatibility. Thanks.

 

[JohnYang1997]

OPA1602? I have it in stock but worried about compatibility. Thanks.

it's fine

 

[192kbps]

it's fine

Hello, I have a question. I bought a DX3 Pro. When I set it to 16bit/44.1kHz, there will be a lot of noise in the headphone, but when I set it to 24bit/44.1kHz, the noise disappears. Why?

 

[Veri]

Hello, I have a question. I bought a DX3 Pro. When I set it to 16bit/44.1kHz, there will be a lot of noise in the headphone, but when I set it to 24bit/44.1kHz, the noise disappears. Why?

16-bit noise floor is a lot higher. 24-bit has much more headroom. Still, even at 16-bit I would expect noise to be low enough. Strange indeed.

 

[jeffbook]

A question for John Yang. Is there any difference in performance in the D10s as compared to the D10 when used to convert USB in to Coax or TOSlink out?