Tool that suggests optimal position for speaker?

[Davide]

Hi everyone.
As we know, the effect of the room is decisive in the quality of the perceived sound, far beyond the quality of the audio system. Which raises a problem, difficult to solve.
We are witnessing the constant diffusion of AI and therefore the question arises spontaneously.
Is there any tool that, given the layout of room and some speakers measurements, suggests the optimal positioning in order to achieve/approach certain targets, like FR, RT60, etc?
I don't mean by engineering precision of course. I think that with a good degree of approximation you could still have an effective result compared to simply putting the speakers where it happens or where is free place.
I've looked for tools online and there are several, but all of them simulates the results based on the chosen placement. Plus they seem pretty generic to me and don't account for speaker performance's.

 

[Sokel]

REW's Room Sim can give you the results you want.

 

[dasdoing]

there are sims, but they don't really predict the outcome accurately because,
1) they only acount the for the 6 surfaces (and some rooms have more), while windows and doors have a big impact, too
2) and than you have all the objects in the room that interfere a lot, too

 

[Davide]

Rew room SIM works like online tools, where it estimates the response given the placement and layout. I'm looking for something that suggests placement based on room and speaker performance.
And as I said, an accurate estimation that takes objects and windows into account shouldn't be necessary. A rough prediction made by an AI that takes into account the main factors should already provide substantial information, which otherwise would require a manual simulation of countless setups.

 

[Open Mind Audio]

Interesting idea. Fortunately, nature has created the ideal tool for this -- our ears. Seriously, there are so many variables (room shape, material surface, the height of each driver, precise frequency range, accuracy, peaks and valleys for individual speakers, openings and whether doors are shut or open, furniture, floor coverings, other speakers, huge TVs, and on and on), that I don't think anything will beat your ears.

For me, using full-range speakers with integrated subwoofers, the bass response trumps everything because if I don't get that part of the placement right, I won't enjoy the rest. I like to verify the response with REW but always start by moving the speakers with slight tweaks to see what sounds good to me.

 

[Davide]

Interesting idea. Fortunately, nature has created the ideal tool for this -- our ears. Seriously, there are so many variables (room shape, material surface, the height of each driver, precise frequency range, accuracy, peaks and valleys for individual speakers, openings and whether doors are shut or open, furniture, floor coverings, other speakers, huge TVs, and on and on), that I don't think anything will beat your ears.

For me, using full-range speakers with integrated subwoofers, the bass response trumps everything because if I don't get that part of the placement right, I won't enjoy the rest. I like to verify the response with REW but always start by moving the speakers with slight tweaks to see what sounds good to me.

I am speaking in the case of an empty room to be furnished, therefore with everything still to be defined and positioned according to the best (rough) response.
Certainly the room layout and the characteristics of the speakers will have something decisive and prevalent that will persist even when the room is furnished.
I don't think by ear you can really compare the responses of different placements considering the time it takes to move everything.
Perhaps with only 2 channels it is possible to express a preference ... but if you switch to multi-channel I think it is impossible to do something by ear.
A dedicated algorithm can certainly better identify the optimal positions. And then it would save time.

I understand from these first answers that such a hifi-friendly tool doesn't exist...

 

[goat76]

The problem, as I understand it, is that the physical dimensions of the room don't always translate 1:1 to the acoustic “dimensions”. It all depends on the material of the walls, windows, and openings in the room.

If you have the opportunity to start from scratch and not have too many things getting in the way of just optimizing for best possible sound, my suggestion is that you watch Acoustic Insiders free step by step guide how to first find the best possible listening position, and after that find the best possible position of the loudspeakers with the least compromises.

Here you go: https://www.acousticsinsider.com/
(You need to set up an account)
“Watch FREE workshop”

 

[TurtlePaul]

The obvious problem with such a tool is that the recommendation is almost always way out into the room. It is hard to incorporate the tradeoff between practicality or room space and acoustics in such a tool.

 

[Davide]

The obvious problem with such a tool is that the recommendation is almost always way out into the room. It is hard to incorporate the tradeoff between practicality or room space and acoustics in such a tool.

For this it should be based on AI.
Deterministic algorithms obviously don't work.

 

[LTig]

An AI needs to be trained with lots and lots of data sbout rooms of different sizes and layouts and their corresponding optimal speaker placement. I'm not aware that such a broad data base exists.

 

[OCA]

If you have a rectangular shaped room, speaker placement rules are pretty standard.

 

[Davide]

An AI needs to be trained with lots and lots of data sbout rooms of different sizes and layouts and their corresponding optimal speaker placement. I'm not aware that such a broad data base exists.

Not necessarily. Machine learning serves to determine a mathematical model in essence. For room acoustics the basic mathematics is already known, see already existing simulators.
It's with that math I mean the AI can determine the best setups to achieve optimal FR and/or other parameters.