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"These headphones/speakers sound better with more juice/current"??

ZolaIII

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@solderdude yes he is but they didn't ment current as strength (A) and neither did I (V*A=W). And still operational difrence between voltage amplifier and power amplifier neads to be understood (I get it).
 

solderdude

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yes he is

Indeed he is so there is no but... ;).
In my previous post I elaborated about the how and why and am sure Static V3 meant exactly that.

Now... since the OP also wrote speakers and the word 'power' it is clear that current limiting is also present in power amps.

An amplifier(A) that is specified for 40W in 8Ω can provide 18V in 8Ω
When the current is limited to say 2.5A that same amplifier can provide 25W in 4Ω and 12.5W in 2Ω

When an amplifier (B) that is specified for 40W in 8Ω can provide 18V in 8Ω but it has its current limit at 10A that amp can provide 80W in 4Ω and 160W in 2Ω.

When a speaker that is 8Ω at 1kHz but dips to 2Ω at say 30Hz and it is connected to an amp that is merely specified at 40W in 8Ω and the volume is cranked up the same speaker will sound much better (louder and with much more bass) on amp B than on amp A.
In that case amp B can deliver more power in low impedances (so more current at the same voltage).
So in this case a higher current capable amp (rated at the same power in 8Ω) will indeed sound better at higher listening levels when the 2.5A current limit is reached.
When that isn't reached both amps will sound the same, but only up to a lower max. SPL.
 
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solderdude

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That article is about extremely low damping factors (load to source imp ratio) and with that I mean damping factors well below 10.
This applies to headphone and speakers and when the DF is not lower than 10 (most amps are much higher) this has nothing to do with current limiting so also nothing about the OP's question nor Static V3 and my replies and explanations. Leaving me baffled as to why you would want to direct readers to information that is completely not related.
 
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twsecrest

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Hi, I'm trying to understand the following statement I hear quite often, "These headphones/speakers sound better with more juice/current",
I read this again in a review regarding my latest acquired IEM's, so I thought to myself what does this mean exactly? currently I have a Mojo 2 and Qudelix 5K for mobile usage, I find being tied to usb using a Mojo 2 a little annoying so in many cases would prefer to use the Qudelix 5K, now if I want to improve the sound of said IEM's by providing them "more juice" what does that entail?
Using the Qudelix 5K to power the IEMs from the single ended output rated @ 80mW to 32ohms, they get very loud at around 60% of of the volume providing 150mV of power, now the Mojo 2 is rated @ 600mW to 30ohms, now if I volume match Mojo 2 with the Qudelix, being that the Mojo 2 is a much more powerful amp is providing more "Juice/current" @ the same volume?
Today I was even testing out my HD6XX's with the Qudelix 5K, very comfortable listening levels @ around 80% of it's volume, around 400mV, it genuinely sounded very good, a/b with my Mojo @ the same volume I couldn't really tell much difference, but, if I was playing a quiet track that required me to max out the volume I noticed a difference, now I'm assuming because @ max volume I'm at the limit of the Qudelix 5K and it can't provide any more "Juice/current" when needed within a passage of a track, but as long as you have some headroom surely the performance using the Qudelix 5K should be the same as a higher powered amp at the same volume, is this correct?
What I want to try to understand is the importance of power, mainly low vs high and does it matter within reason?
I'm not sure if Amir has done a video on this but I think it would be an interesting topic to cover as I think it's very misunderstood.
IEMs are more likely to be used with a battery powered portable device (smartphone, DAP, mp3 player, etc)
Battery power usually offers low voltage, but higher current, so IEMs (like 12-Ohm) are usually low voltage use, but need more current.
IEMs usually need little power to work well, so adding more power will not likely help.

The 300-Ohm Sennheiser HD6XX will like more voltage, but I'm guessing need less current.
OTL tube headphone amplifier will put out a lot of voltage (not so much current).

Not sure how USB power compares to battery power.
 

ZolaIII

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That article is about extremely low damping factors (load to source imp ratio) when one applies this to headphone/speakers
As I said I am done trying to explain it it's already explained (without use of extreme examples) quite good and understandable to less technically experienced readers on Wiki.
 

staticV3

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solderdude

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Could you please tell me where the 5.2 Bal is coming from? Just double the SE value?
Also curious that Qudelix spec the output to just 2/4 when in reality they can do more:
https://www.qudelix.com/blogs/5k-dac-amp/power-budget

Acc. to Amirs measurements the output SE in 300 ohm is 2.6V. (23mW in 300ohm = 2.6V) and it isn't even clipping yet.
Amir also measured at 50ohm and the output voltage doubled (so 4x the power) so the output voltage will also double at 300ohm so 5.2V.
 

tvih

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"These headphones/speakers sound better with more juice/current",
they mean more power (more Voltage regarding amplifier not really strength of current). Tolerance to lo loads (very lo loads for such) is also problem for some serious hedaphone amplifiers that have high V (again relatively speaking) output.
I'm becoming more and more convinced most of them don't even know what the hell they mean, and are just parroting what they saw someone else say. That very thing gets said about my main speakers (Dynaudio Confidence C1) all the time, as if some amps would just magically shove in extra "current" into the speaker at any given volume beyond what it actually requires to play at that volume level. I'm certainly no amp engineer myself so that I could claim any deep understanding of them, but what I mostly don't get is how the hell would any reasonable amplifier run out of "current" - whether the claimant considers that to be voltage or amperage regardless of using that specific word - while only using a couple of watts during peaks at listening volume like in my case, thus well within its power supply capacity? Especially when the impedance curve doesn't even dip under 4 ohm to be a difficult load in general, other than the somewhat low sensitivity if one wants to really blast at high volume. And the claim seems to usually specifically be that they need the "current" regardless of volume level, not just to achieve high volumes. And when I disagree (over at other forums) given there's certainly no clipping etc. happening to indicate running out of power of any definition, I get piled on.

They do benefit from more volume, that's much is true - but then ANY reasonable speaker is going to be perceived as sounding better at 60 dB average volume than 50 dB average for example, hence the whole careful level matching requirement in comparative testing, whether blind or sighted.
 

Spkrdctr

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I'm becoming more and more convinced most of them don't even know what the hell they mean, and are just parroting what they saw someone else say. That very thing gets said about my main speakers (Dynaudio Confidence C1) all the time, as if some amps would just magically shove in extra "current" into the speaker at any given volume beyond what it actually requires to play at that volume level. And the claim seems to usually specifically be that they need the "current" regardless of volume level, not just to achieve high volumes. And when I disagree (over at other forums) given there's certainly no clipping etc. happening to indicate running out of power of any definition, I get piled on.
You have discovered Audiophilia Neurosis on the other forums that are into voodoo science. They pile on as they don't know what they are talking about and giving amps "magical" properties. Or as some have said before "Use my product and the magic happens"! Problem is Amir is not a trained magician with years of experience so he can't test for the magic. Subjectivists know magic when they hear it. Objectivists are still trying to find it. Stick around here and you will know the subjectivist emperor has no clothes even though thousands of followers will say he is dressed in a very nice suit. It is unbelievable!
 

tvih

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@tvih it is about dumping factor and trancender impedance.
A nice read telling you how it's not black and white in the end.
Best regards.
Thanks, that was an informative read, even my addled brain managed to understand at least some of it :p

From looking it up, seems both my AVR and stereo amp - which are the amps that I've used to drive the C1s - have a damping factor of 100+ at 8 ohm, so still 50+ at 4 ohm. Which according to that article would still be adequate, even if not stellar. Assuming the manufacturers' specs are to be believed, anyway - there's no full frequency range measurements with a speaker-type load to be found.

Now, that spec aside neither of them would have good measured SINAD, but between my listening volumes and the room's noise floor neither distortion nor noise is audible to my ears, so not really a biggie. I do have an Aiyima A07 incoming which could improve the SINAD further, but don't know what its damping factor is comparatively. (Also Topping PA3s incoming, but it's supposed to be for my desktop stack with the DX3 Pro+ that I already have, to drive Dynaudio Audience 42s. Performs roughly the same as the A07 anyways.) Regardless, with this spec being seemingly adequate too it seems to me that the amps should have the basics well enough in hand so as to not have meaningful deficiencies for my playback volumes. Try telling that to those who tell me I'm entirely wasting my speakers with those amps, though. Oh well.

Side note: somewhat amusingly the Naims that used to be suggested a lot for Dyn speakers due to their (supposedly) high current output and great control seem to have a factor of around 13 or so for 4 ohm (0.3 ohm output impedance). That doesn't seem particularly great on its own, though as the article pointed out it's just one measurement/spec among many.
 
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ZolaIII

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@tvih just keep the speaker cables short and thick and you won't have problems with any of those amplifiers regarding it. Main thing is that you mesure them from your listening position and EQ and position them correctly and they will sound a lot better.
 

tvih

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@tvih just keep the speaker cables short and thick and you won't have problems with any of those amplifiers regarding it. Main thing is that you mesure them from your listening position and EQ and position them correctly and they will sound a lot better.
Yep, cables are something like 2 meters (as is the listening distance) at 2x2.5mm2 thickness (so 2x14 AWG), and a miniDSP 2x4 HD is EQ:ing them. Plus now that I finally have the subwoofer in use thanks to said EQ (as room modes were impossible with sub and no EQ), that's even less load on the main channel amp.

I may get an Ncore amp in the future, though in the current room it's overkill. But the 2x125W version from Audiophonics is only a ~430€ shipped, so not bad.
 

tiramisu

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I don't understand the magic where you can generate more power for the speakers than a USB 2.0 can provide unless you provide an adequate power supply.
USB 2.0 specification allows hosts to deliver 5V at 500 mA but in many cases, the device may be offering up significantly less power. It definitely isn't providing more.
 

solderdude

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One actually could provide more than 2.5W from 5V at 500mA even when efficiency of converters is just 80%.
That trick lies in music power. One could charge capacitors or a small battery with 2.5W as a continuous drawn power over a certain time period and use the stored energy to drive something like a small speaker or headphone with peak powers well over 2.5W, maybe even 10W peaks or so.
No magic would be needed, just temporary power storage.;)
 

Cbdb2

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You need more power than USB provides to drive RCA, or headphones let alone balanced outputs.
5 watts is more than enough for headphones and orders of magnitude more than enough for line level (2 volts into 10k is 1.6 milliwatts.
May be that looks as a big variation for you but it's not. In speakers let's say even declared 6 Ohm's you can have spikes over 50 Ohm's (8.3x more than declared) and if it's in a area that is widely used (hot) it will need (much) higher average V to drive them then declared. V goes up and A goes down as you said.
You got a saying wrong in the first place (they didn't mean A strength but V).
V*A=W
Of course lo impedance loads and deaps under 3 Ohm's in speakers represents opposite problem of high A that can burn things up with systems that aren't tolerable to such (usually one of protection circuits or a fuse would kick in /burn) or burning cables which can't sustain such A at given V.
You have that backwards. The speaker goes to 50 ohms where it is most efficient. A speaker is designed to put out constant power over the f range with constant voltage. To do this the impedance varies because the speaker efficiency varies with voltage. The voltage is CONSTANT thru the bandwith so the power is lowest at 50ohms.
 
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ZolaIII

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@Cbdb2 I got it all right don't worry it's a bit more complicated than that, try to read paper from post #23. Amplifier operational voltage is determined by design and it is rather variable (same IC operating in range but wider range determining it's power output) and have a plesent evening regarding me.
Edit: actually read this it will be easier for you to digest.
 
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Cbdb2

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Nothing to do with
"Hi, I'm trying to understand the following statement I hear quite often,
"These headphones/speakers sound better with more juice/current"
or what I posted. Which was about current into speakers at there resonant freq. Why don't you find something about that. Your arguing against ohms law. Didn't someone already say that?
And damping factor (which is highest at the max impedance (50 ohms)) is determined mostly by feedback not by wattage, rail voltage, reserve current or other power supply specs (juice).
 
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Cbdb2

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