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The Vinyl Frontier

rdenney

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Much of what is in this thread sounds like scientists conducting an experiment on simple life forms, and trying to explain why those single-cell amoebas do what they do. But maybe those amoebas have a different kind of intelligence than what the scientists understand or care about.

In the early 70's, John Naisbitt wrote a popular book called Megatrends. I read it, but don't remember much of it except that he predicted a high-touch reaction to high tech. He described people whose interface with the world was intuitive, personal, and physical, who would use technology but hate it. I was skeptical, being a high-tech guy then and for the decades following. But I'm swinging the other way in my old age. I'm finding that I have to balance the technological with the sensory aesthetic. This is one (of several) reasons I still sustain interaction with physical media.

(I'm also perhaps wise enough to care more about music than about signal/noise ratio.)

But lots of people were and are there from the start. Technology is so ubiquitous that people think of it the same way they think of advertising--ultimately corrupt, but still subject to it and swayed by it. They use technology but hate it. People like that who grew up with it lack the sense of novelty that people my age have towards software-based technology, and it can't excite them as something wholly new. This happens even with three-dimensional technologies. People my age looked forward with unbridled anticipation and enthusiasm to getting their driver's license, because it meant freedom. Now, many 16-year-olds see cars as another opportunity to wait in line, which seems to them more like being trapped than freedom. Some of them are excited about technology that would take away the need for cars they have to drive, but I suspect a greater number are simply moving to where they don't have to use a car for daily life.

(I call them cliff-dwellers. If we look at the native-American cultures of the Southwest, we see a stark contrast between the original residents, who live in tightly clustered villages stacked on top of each other, and the incoming migrant people, who were Athabascan nomads. Yes, that was the better part of a millennium ago, but still the pueblo cultures live in mostly friendly but still uneasy proximity with the Navajo people. Count me with the Navajos--no cliff dweller am I.)

Those who need the physical world love the sheer authenticity of vinyl records, tapes, and, eventually, though probably to a lesser extent, CDs. Vinyl records, unlike tapes, are durable (on the scale of a lifetime) with even modest care, and the technology required to play them seems (at least) possible to make even in a home workshop. And even if it's flawed, it's still more than good enough to listen to music without distraction.

Lest we proud technologists think of these people as mere liberal arts majors in college ("liberal arts major" = amoeba--see above), I would include more than a few engineers in this mix (myself included). Engineers who loved to design three-dimensional things are losing the long war with software, and they know it. Hence, they latch onto hobbies that still depend on beautifully made machines that express genius of design as well as high craft. It's not enough that it looks technical or manufactured, in the sense of steampunk style, it also has to work, and work well. These sorts of people end up enamored with tape decks, turntables, wristwatches, film photography (including print-making and displaying), classic cars, and so on.

So, vinyl record technology is benefitting from a confluence of (some of) the young for whom the wonders of software hold no sense of novelty or romance, the mechanically inclined who prefer the three-dimensional world to software, and those who need the high touch of the physical world as a reaction to the ubiquity and domination of technology.

Rick "how's that for a teenage philosophy essay?" Denney
 

rdenney

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More rare = more valuable
Not always. Something has to trigger the value for rarity to count. Ebel watches from he 80's are far more rare than Rolex watches of the 80's, but I'll bet you never heard of Ebel and pristine examples can be had for 10% of ratty Rolexes. On the retail market at the time (and up through at least the early 90's) they were much more expensive. But Ebel is these days owned by Movado, and they have lost that exclusive image. The image is as important as the rarity.

Rick "who learned his lesson about 'import' pressings long ago" Denney
 

Frank Dernie

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I've noticed a number of Test Pressings appearing on eBay recently. I'm not sure whether these are actually better or worse than normal releases. The implication is that they're better.

I suppose it depends on how good the cut was. If good, then a test pressing should be the best, given that the stampers are brand new. If the cut was poor, (or the metallurgy went wrong, so the stamper is poor) then it will be worse than a release...that's what a test pressing is for!

Is there any logic to what people think is valuable?

S.
I think anything rare has a value, whether good or bad.
When I was collecting cameras the valuable ones were rare not necessarily because of being good, some were rare because they were not very good and failed to sell!
Some were rare because they had been too expensive and not many sold.
Some were rare because they were pro models which were abused then most thrown away.
Admittedly some were rare because they were so exqisitely made they were more than most people could afford.

I think selling a test pressing as better rather than rare is, as you say, a bit random.

My local record dealer told me some of his biggest customers are collectors who know how rare a pressing is, know all about stamper numbers and artwork but never play their purchase, it is entirely like collecting plates (or film cameras) I never used the cameras I collected, though I did try out most lenses.
 

Frank Dernie

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Not always. Something has to trigger the value for rarity to count. Ebel watches from he 80's are far more rare than Rolex watches of the 80's, but I'll bet you never heard of Ebel and pristine examples can be had for 10% of ratty Rolexes. On the retail market at the time (and up through at least the early 90's) they were much more expensive. But Ebel is these days owned by Movado, and they have lost that exclusive image. The image is as important as the rarity.

Rick "who learned his lesson about 'import' pressings long ago" Denney
Yes, being fashionable is important in collecting.
I have always been amazed by Rolex prices. It is a very good movement but it is mass produced in much bigger quantities than other quality watches, the factory makes sure supply is restricted to keep the price up. Mind you it was started by a marketing specialist to make money rather than an artisan, so as a company they have always known what they were doing business wise.

I was given a nicely engraved Ebel chronograph by a driver who won the World Championship when I ran him. It has the same movement as the contemporary Rolex Daytona and whilst being priceless to me is worth a tiny fraction of the price paid for Daytonas.
 

rdenney

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Yes, being fashionable is important in collecting.
I have always been amazed by Rolex prices. It is a very good movement but it is mass produced in much bigger quantities than other quality watches, the factory makes sure supply is restricted to keep the price up. Mind you it was started by a marketing specialist to make money rather than an artisan, so as a company they have always known what they were doing business wise.

I was given a nicely engraved Ebel chronograph by a driver who won the World Championship when I ran him. It has the same movement as the contemporary Rolex Daytona and whilst being priceless to me is worth a tiny fraction of the price paid for Daytonas.
Yes, Rolex collectors have lost their minds.

That was a very nice gift--a grand gift, even.

I probably know as much as anyone in the U.S. about Ebel's history outside of (maybe) a few people at MGI, so we are risking a vast and unappreciated off-topic diversion. :) The Ebel Chronograph of which you speak was first offered in 1982, when the company owner (Pierre-Alain Blum, grandson of the founder) foresaw the return of fine mechanical watches and sought out any remaining old stock of the Zenith 3019PHC chronograph movement. This was the famed Zenith El Primero, which shares a claim with Seiko and a consortium led by Heuer to the first self-winding chronograph movement in 1969. (Zenith is an old company, but was purchased in 1971 by the coincidentally named Zenith Electronics Corporation, who sold it to an investor in Switzerland in 1978, but who also had halted mechanical watch production in 1976). Blum bought a few thousand old-stock movements that Zenith had squirreled away, finished them, and installed them in watches. The resulting Ebel Sport Classic Chronograph retailed for twice what the (manual-wind) Rolex Daytona of the day cost. Ebel was hugely successful in the 80's, being a high-quality producer that was also an effective marketer. Ebel's sales encouraged Zenith to restart production, which they did in 1986. My Ebel chronograph from that period dates from that first year new movement production. Rolex, needing an automatic-wind movement for their chronograph, then sought out Zenith to make movement to their spec. (It's a myth that Rolex only made their own movements. Rolex SA of Geneva didn't even own its movement manufacture until 2006, when it bought what had been the Aegler company of Biel/Bienne, who made their movements, though there was a lot of mutual shareholding and exclusivity.) The Zenith-powered Daytona came out in 1988, but the movement in the Ebel is better, retaining the 5-Hz high-beat design of the original El Primero (Rolex developed and started using their own excellent chronograph movement in 1999). In 1994, the last year Ebel ordered movements from Zenith, the steel Ebel Chronograph retailed for more than 50% higher than the steel Rolex Daytona, and did so quite successfully, though at lower production levels. Ebel's subsequent ownership troubles came later. After '94, regular Ebel chronographs used a Lemania base design that was also used by Breguet, Ulysse Nardin (who bought the IP from Ebel in 2012), and Omega.

A plain Zenith-powered Rolex 16520 Daytona sells in the mid-20's and up (cheaper for the unpopular two-tone version), but the Ebel is (more rarely) available in fully serviced condition for under a couple of grand. But, as I said, Rolex collectors have lost their minds.

Okay, okay...I'm done.

Rick "wearing an Ebel Aquatica 500 limited edition today" Denney
 

Robin L

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Something is worth what somebody else is prepared to pay.
Yeah. Somehow, I got the impression that Classical LPs are collectible, while the reality is that they were the first LPs to go direct to landfill. Sad, but those were the albums most likely to expose the flaws of LP playback. 1989 was a good year to work in a store that sold recorded music. I was in Berkeley then, The Musical Offering is still short walking distance from Amoeba and Rasputin, back then there was also Tower, Leopold's and the Mint Platter. Lots of good used LPs arriving in bins daily, as CDs pushed out vinyl. Good time to have a decent turntable. Lots of mint condition LPs going for $3 a pop.
 

levimax

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Good time to have a decent turntable. Lots of mint condition LPs going for $3 a pop.
I wonder if now is a similar time for CD's. My local Goodwill just lowered their price to $0.99 each for CD's and had 20% off last weekend. They had a nice selection of about 400 titles many of which I had but I found 5 for $3.96..
 

MattHooper

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The thing is I still love vinyl. A good pressing can somehow still sound better to me than the equivalent digital file. I am fully aware that this is most likely either a distortion that I find pleasing, or some psychoacoustic effect.

On the latter, I wonder if there’s something in the visual aspect of vinyl. Sight is the most important human sense. Unless affected by trauma or genetic abnormality, we receive 80% of what we perceive of the world through our eyes. I wonder if simply watching a record spin and understanding that the music is created by the interaction of groove and diamond there right in front of us is somehow more satisfying than sitting looking at inert boxes of digital wonder in which music is formed from a stream of noughts and ones in a manner that, unless we’re technically gifted, is utterly incomprehensible.

Certainly what we see influences what we perceive. Though in my case all my amps and source equipment, including turntable, is in a separate room from my listening room so I don't see it operating when listening to music.

But, conceptually, I agree. There is a sort of physical continuity to handing a record and even actually seeing the pattern of the grooves that "are" the music. You can see the dense or fast areas of the music in the grooves, the slower more sparse areas. And it really is a marvel how it works, plus there seems to be a conceptually easy link between seeing a turntable/vinyl operate and understanding how it works, vs a digital box which can seem essentially a "magic box" where you don't really know what happens inside. Or even if you do, it's all hidden and more esoteric.

I've mentioned before it's similar to tube amps, where seeing the glowing filament and understanding that is the music right there flowing through and being amplified, is aesthetically and conceptually satisfying (to some of us).

And I agree: I have a benchmark DAC which I don't ever see a reason to replace, but I still find myself feeling that some LPs "sound better" to my ears than the digital versions. And visa versa.
 

Robin L

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I wonder if now is a similar time for CD's. My local Goodwill just lowered their price to $0.99 each for CD's and had 20% off last weekend. They had a nice selection of about 400 titles many of which I had but I found 5 for $3.96..
The Rasputin's in Fresno had plenty of crazy cheap [like 25 cents a pop] clearance sales of CDs, at least as of 2019. Haven't bought anything except at the local library [$1 a pop] since a year ago---wait, no, there was that Bruckner Symphony set from Amazon, $30. But that' it. This pandemic has re-arranged my listening habits, learning to navigate Amazon Music. Amazing how many good sounding YouTube videos of music are available now.
 

MattHooper

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Vinyl seems to be a status symbol in dance music. People will pay 50-100 pounds (or more) for 12"s when the tracks are available on CD for a tenth of the price or as lossless downloads for even less. Furthermore, it seems people will pay more for promos or test presses than the actual release. I guess those confer some bragging rights.

Yeah. I'm not dissing anyone who feels that way or who perceive X to have more value than I do.

But I feel fairly impervious to the whole "value" thing to a degree particularly when it comes to which records I buy (and I buy a lot). My overriding criteria is "do I like this music?" and then purchasing/owning/playing the record adds to my enjoyment. The idea of buying some rare record stamping "because it is rare" and therefore "lots of other people find it valuable" has no appeal. I just don't really grok that state of mind, which I see as the state of mind of a "collector" who collects things very much on how the thing is "valued" as rare or, "completing a set" or whatever.
Which, again, is no diss on anyone who collects this way.

That doesn't mean I get no kick out of owning something rare. I have lots of Library Music records. They were never sold publicly, only created as a sampler sent to film/movie/tv production houses from which an editor selected some cues he liked. Then the music was ordered on tape, the record usually just thrown out. And not many were pressed of each record. So when I'm holding one of these records, especially one in great condition, and admiring the zanily inspired album covers and thinking of the history of that object, and how amazing it is it even exists and I have it, that certainly is enriching. But to me that backstory is not the driving factor, I'd never buy it simply because of that story, it's a deep interest in the music that initiates why it's valuable to me in the first place.

(BTW...I even sort of irk myself in writing that because I find one of the most annoying things in the audiophile world to be the Audiophile Purity Test, where someone always tries to trump another by saying "I'm really only in this For The Music." In other words YOU are all about gear and technology, where the purer higher ethic is to care about The Music. Hilariously, this claim is often made by people with expensive audio systems, boutique cabling, held up by cable risers, tweaks all over the place...you know...like a normal average music lover just in to The Music.
My view is there isn't any more pure goal. Even if we are talking about the mythical audiophile with the hundred thousand dollar system and 10 albums he only ever plays to check out his system, that's his bliss, who am I to tell him what he should value? And we all go through periods of concentrating more on the gear than the music, and back and forth. It's all good).
 

Robin L

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Yeah. I'm not dissing anyone who feels that way or who perceive X to have more value than I do.

But I feel fairly impervious to the whole "value" thing to a degree particularly when it comes to which records I buy (and I buy a lot). My overriding criteria is "do I like this music?" and then purchasing/owning/playing the record adds to my enjoyment. The idea of buying some rare record stamping "because it is rare" and therefore "lots of other people find it valuable" has no appeal. I just don't really grok that state of mind, which I see as the state of mind of a "collector" who collects things very much on how the thing is "valued" as rare or, "completing a set" or whatever.
Which, again, is no diss on anyone who collects this way.

That doesn't mean I get no kick out of owning something rare. I have lots of Library Music records. They were never sold publicly, only created as a sampler sent to film/movie/tv production houses from which an editor selected some cues he liked. Then the music was ordered on tape, the record usually just thrown out. And not many were pressed of each record. So when I'm holding one of these records, especially one in great condition, and admiring the zanily inspired album covers and thinking of the history of that object, and how amazing it is it even exists and I have it, that certainly is enriching. But to me that backstory is not the driving factor, I'd never buy it simply because of that story, it's a deep interest in the music that initiates why it's valuable to me in the first place.

(BTW...I even sort of irk myself in writing that because I find one of the most annoying things in the audiophile world to be the Audiophile Purity Test, where someone always tries to trump another by saying "I'm really only in this For The Music." In other words YOU are all about gear and technology, where the purer higher ethic is to care about The Music. Hilariously, this claim is often made by people with expensive audio systems, boutique cabling, held up by cable risers, tweaks all over the place...you know...like a normal average music lover just in to The Music.
My view is there isn't any more pure goal. Even if we are talking about the mythical audiophile with the hundred thousand dollar system and 10 albums he only ever plays to check out his system, that's his bliss, who am I to tell him what he should value? And we all go through periods of concentrating more on the gear than the music, and back and forth. It's all good).
I only worked at Ray Avery's Rare Records for a year, but that year gave me a lot of insight as regards what makes a record "collectible". Rare Records really lived up to the name. I showed up right about the time Elvis died. Bing Crosby also died right around the same time. So, the most valuable, collectible records that were regularly selling at the time were the Elvis Soundtracks in mono. There were very small runs of these records: "Compatible Stereo" was just around the corner. So "Clambake" in mono was going for $500 a pop. Hugh Hefner wanted the 78 of "Hurray For Captain Spaulding", that was $400. On the other hand, we'd get multiple calls daily from people with 78s of "White Christmas" by Bing Crosby. I don't think its record for best selling recording of a song was beaten until "Hey Jude" showed up. No, we didn't need any more, thank you very much.

Lots of Hollywood music types would should up, also Wally Heider, with his "Hindsight" issues of big-band radio transcriptions. Ray Avery had a similar side hustle, making LPs out of those giant transcription discs of big band jazz for armed radio. "Hello, this is Leonard Feather", got that phone call multiple times. Plenty of session players and other film related musicians showed up, too many for me to keep track of. Great fun while it lasted.

My big catch from Rare Records was from finding a clean three disc 78 set of the soundtrack to "Captain From Castile" at a thrift store. Traded it for two original Savoy issues of Charlie Parker in excellent condition. One was Billie's Bounce/Now's the Time, the other Steeplechase/Merry-Go-Round. Every reissue I've heard had reverb slapped on, not a bad idea as these sound like they were recorded in a phone booth. There were a lot of Charlie Parker 78s there, and lots of the Dial issues wound up in the $1 bins underneath the LP bins on the main floor. I also got British/French/Japanese pressings of Yardbird, even a 4 EP set of the Clef Big Band sessions. I guess that these must of been my "Peak Experiences" as a record collector.
 
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KingRolo

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I found the Video below very helpful, and I bought my first record in 1983!
Vinyl is more of labor of love, A kind of physical ritual... But I usually stream :facepalm:
 

Taketheflame

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but whilst in principle R2R tape can be superior to LPs in a domestic setting, only if you make your own recordings.
The high speed duplicate tapes are noisy and lack treble, are susceptible shedding to print through and stretching, and altogether ridiculous fashion since the only good bit is that R2R recorders look cool.
I consider my valve amp and Revox R2R as display items.
This is the reason I've had a difficult time actually pulling the trigger on a R2R machine. Vintage pre-recorded media is suspect at best due to the aforementioned issues (and in many cases, the tapes can fetch more money than the LP equivalents! Look at Discogs...). And the cost of pre-recorded R2R media done right? (i.e - recorded in real time @ 15 IPS) - not happening for me!

Sometimes I still think about grabbing one at some point, because yes - the machines are works of art, and I thought it might be fun to try to track down whatever I can on "mystery" tapes to digitize (i.e - old local radio programs/music and such that an owner may have recorded decades ago now), but they're a far less practical consumer analog format than vinyl or even a good cassette deck IMO. And who knows how many owner-recorded tapes are actually still out there in good shape. (and if the machine used was set up properly).
 
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