The "value" of the LS50 Meta and their KC62 sub

[RiseFall]

I actually own the Metas and the KC62 sub.

Usually we say that, if we want un upgrade, it's better to spend twice or more to obtain a real improvement that is not a step-side.

Since I have the Metas, but also the KC62, in the same "eco-system", so we can consider them "together", what value I should give to this setup?

If I want to make a real step up, I should spend the double of the Metas or I should spend the double of the Metas plus the KC62?

 

[TurtlePaul]

It is a stupid rule of thumb.

Here on ASR, we have shown with science that some expensive products are very very good and some are very very bad - cost is not a good indicator of performance and therefore shouldn't be used to decide upgrades.

Are you using the equalizer and crossover built into the KC62? It is a pretty well thought out unit. I would try to set the crossover frequency as high as you can because the LS 50 Meta has trouble in bass as the frequency gets to 100 hz and below. I would experiment with 120 hz or 140 hz for the crossover. If you can't hear where the KC62 is in the room, the higher the better. Also, fiddle with the corner/wall/apartment settings.

What are you using for a source? I would say that the biggest upgrade you would notice from this setup without replacing anything would be to implement some form of room equalization (look at MiniDSP, DIRAC, REW, Audyssey, YPAO). If you are using a PC as source, this could be as cheap as buying a UMIK-1, or it could involve replacing your receiver or buying a MiniDSP.

Another problem that people often face is uneven bass. You could try adding another KC62 in a different location to get smoother bass throughout your room if this is a problem. This should also give you about 6 dB more bass power if you find yourself running up against the maximum output if the KC62.

Those speakers are decent, so it would be quite a bit more to get better speakers and the results would likely be shades better rather than transformational.

edit: I forgot to mention the free tweak: speaker placement can make transformational changes.

 

[Sancus]

Basing upgrades on amount spent is an audiophile manufacturer scam that the gullible audiophile community has perpetuated.

If you want to upgrade you should find speakers that sound better. You can do that via a combination of measurements, listening tests, etc but more expensive does not mean better.

The LS50 Meta are very good. Obvious upgrade paths would be one of the R series floorstanders(but these have a bit different sound you may or may not prefer) or the new Reference Meta. Also potentially Genelec 8351B or 8361A. If you want to switch off coaxials there are many other options.

If all those sound too expensive well that's because the LS50 Meta are an incredible value speaker if you stay within their SPL limits.

 

[Vini darko]

What do you find lacking in your current set up?

 

[RiseFall]

Thanks for all your replies.

Are you using the equalizer and crossover built into the KC62?

I own a Lyngdorf TDAI-3400, KC62 is on LFE, I'm using 90hz on the Metas and 55hz on the sub, as adviced by the Kef engineer that answer me to a query once.

So I'm using the active correction of the Lyngdorf called RoomPerfect, the room is a square of 4,5x4,5 meters (that's an issue), it's half treated and the measurements with UMIK I made in the past showed a pretty decent result.

About positioning, the Lyngdorf wants the loudspeaker more close possibile to the wall but in the end I have them at 35 cm from it.

LS50 Meta are an incredible value speaker if you stay within their SPL limits

My room is mid to small, and I live in an aparment with neighboors, so my volume is never very high.

What do you find lacking in your current set up?

Everything is fine from the bottom to the highs, the match with the KC62 seem work perfect, even the most lowest LF is very good and never distorted or wrong. Mids (to me) are excellent and highs (to me) are excellent too, without any fatigue.

The issue is the mid-bass area, where the woofer thump, in the electronic, hip-hop, rnb and similar music, there is fatiguing.

There is not EQ, correction, and everything that fix that issue. When I listen to that kind of music I even prefer to bypass the active correction, in fact, with the active correction that issue is even more.

With any other kind of music, instead, the active correction is better, but even without it, the result are excellent.

About movies, action movies, the results are very good, not issue at all.

Said that, I'm curious to check if an upgrade of the loudspeakers could solve that issue, but, in the same time, I'm afraid to lose something about the Kef.

That's why I open this thread, I want to understand how much to spend if I want to keep Kef advantages and improve the mid-bass area.

I have not experience at all of higher values speakers in my room, but, i'm also happy to hear from you that my actual setup is good.

 

[abdo123]

you should not spend anything at all because you already have a state of the art system and you should work on your room acoustics instead.

 

[BrokenEnglishGuy]

I actually own the Metas and the KC62 sub.

Usually we say that, if we want un upgrade, it's better to spend twice or more to obtain a real improvement that is not a step-side.

Since I have the Metas, but also the KC62, in the same "eco-system", so we can consider them "together", what value I should give to this setup?

If I want to make a real step up, I should spend the double of the Metas or I should spend the double of the Metas plus the KC62?

What do you want?
Do you want a upgrade, but in which area?

What do you mean with this?
''The issue is the mid-bass area, where the woofer thump, in the electronic, hip-hop, rnb and similar music, there is fatiguing.''

You need to crank up the volume more and the metas couldn't handle these hard bass music?

 

[phoenixdogfan]

You are probably overdriving the woofer and causing it to distort with the hip hop music. I would think a bigger sub with a 12" -13" driver would be something to explore before going out and spending a ton of money on a brand new system. Something like an SB3000 (the real one, not the mini) which can get as loud as 105 db in those frequencies might be what you're looking for.

 

[TurtlePaul]

The issue is the mid-bass area, where the woofer thump, in the electronic, hip-hop, rnb and similar music, there is fatiguing.

There is not EQ, correction, and everything that fix that issue. When I listen to that kind of music I even prefer to bypass the active correction, in fact, with the active correction that issue is even more.

With any other kind of music, instead, the active correction is better, but even without it, the result are excellent.

There are two possible problems:

If you are having problems with frequency response in the "transition" frequencies (~100-350 hz), it can almost certainly be fixed with an equalizer. Do you have a measurement mic? Also, pulling the speakers another 12-18" from the back will will also probably fix this (but may be impractical for use in many listening rooms).

The second issue is the LS50 Meta, being a 2-way coaxial speaker, quite obviously runs out of capacity at this range and distortion gets quite high. This is why I suggest trying the push the crossover up to 120-140 hz. This will result in less direct distortion because the KC62 has more radiating area and less intermodulation distortion because you are decoupling the bass from the mids. The LC50 Meta just can't make it low enough to accomplish a 90 hz crossover.

Also, I am having trouble seeing how a low-pass sub at 55 hz and a high-pass bookshelf at 90 hz can be well integrated.

 

[RiseFall]

Do you want a upgrade, but in which area?

I explain me better (I try): the mid-bass range is fatiguing, I don't need "more" punch, maybe I even need "less" of it, I want a more plain mid-bass response. To explain me better, the "kick" of the drums or worse, the electronic "kick" of the drums it the issue. It's too much, while all the other areas are more than fine (even the bass itself and the lower bass).

You need to crank up the volume more and the metas couldn't handle these hard bass music?

Not at all, the volume of the Metas is more than enough, and just want a more resolution/easy listening result on the mid-bass area.

The Metas and the sub perform good even on hard bass music, but often the result is faiguing only that particular area.

I am having trouble seeing how a low-pass sub at 55 hz and a high-pass bookshelf at 90 hz can be well integrated

To be more precise:

Set LPF with LR 4th order at 55Hz
Set HPF with BW 2nd order at 90Hz
LFE on KC62

I'm now try to raise up the crossover as adviced.

 

[Sancus]

Measurements would help a lot in figuring out whether you have a frequency response issue caused by SBIR in the midbass region or some other problem like lack of output capability.

Get a umik1, it's basic kit at this point.

 

[RiseFall]

I own an UMIK because in the past, before RoomPerfect, I used Dirac Live.

I did't take a REW measure since many months, but really, I didn't touch anything in the room, expect the add of the KC62, so I am attacking those measurements (one bypass and one with the correction).

Today I went to a shop and listen, in their enviroments, a good number of loudspeakers: an old PMC floorstanding, Focal K2, Definitive Tecnology D11 and Sonus Faber Nova I.

After an accurate listening session I went home and continue to listen the same tracks I listened in the shop.

BTW, the best loudspeaker, to my hear, I heard in the shop was the DT D11, while the worse was the PMC (too unbalanced overall sound, but ironically the best mid-bass). The Focal was near to be the worse (voices sounded awful, mid-highs accentuated, bloat bass), very good the Nova I, but nothing special and a little boosted in the bass.

Anyway, I went home after that session (the shop has a rectangular excellent shaped room, not treated, while I have an awful square shaped room, treated), and the result was: every single parameter (soundstage, depth, horizontal, vertical, voice, details, darkness between the instrument, contrast, etc.) was totally in favour of my setup and my room, while, the mid-bass area, only that, was clearly in favour of the shop.

Of course, in "good recorded albums" like classic, jazz, voices, acoustic stuff, etc., everything was clearly better in my room.

 

[MarkWinston]

Following.

 

[RiseFall]

Now I'm using:
Set LPF with LR 4th order at 70Hz
Set HPF with BW 2nd order at 100Hz

I'm going to upgrade the setup by filling the (actual void) stands with 7,5kg for each of Atacama bites.

I don't know what to expect, I hope to improve the mid-bass performarce.

After some thinking, what I read here and what I listened with my ear in the shop the other day, I think I'll stay with this setup, improving what I can.

 

[RiseFall]

I back to this thread because I upgraded the setup with another KC62 so now I own:

Lyngdorf TDAI-3400 + the Metas + their stands + two KC62 subs

I'm looking for an advice.

I listened in a shop a pair of Def Tech D11 and I really liked them (in that room).

Also, I have a very good chance to get an used pair of Tannoy DC8.

Do you think makes sense to try these speakers or do you think my setup is still above and I will almost surely lost time and money?

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

Suggestions. place the subwoofers close to the each main speakers. under them if you can, at least as close to each mains as you can. Use a higher crossover. I don't know the KC62 but use its higher settings, (>110Hz) would be preferred. Let the Lyngdorf take care of the integration.

There is a bit of learning when it comes to accurate system. if you were used to a system lacking in bass, the new system may come to be a bit unsettling. You mentioned, for exemple the kick drums. In real life, kick drum are felt and heard... In many systems it is only hinted at, even if present on the recordings. With good properly integrated bass, kick drums are heard and felt... Accurate bass is not as commonplace as people think.
Also, you may have a resonance in your room at the listening position that the Lyngdorf DRC may have missed. On that, a question: Where is you main listening position? If it is at the back wall, it may explain your problems. It is a common mistake, even here on ASR of good systems with people seating at the wall... If it is the case, move a few feet from the wall... Run Lyngdorf again and report
Wait! There is more ... You could use some judiciously placed some "bass-traps" in the room. I believe GTK Acoustics could help you with that.. No relation and no personal experience with them, only anecdotes that they are really good, however the area of passive room treatment in the mid-bass or the bass, is outside of my comfort and knowledge zones...

Peace.

 

[Tangband]

I actually own the Metas and the KC62 sub.

Usually we say that, if we want un upgrade, it's better to spend twice or more to obtain a real improvement that is not a step-side.

Since I have the Metas, but also the KC62, in the same "eco-system", so we can consider them "together", what value I should give to this setup?

If I want to make a real step up, I should spend the double of the Metas or I should spend the double of the Metas plus the KC62?

A 5,5 inch midbase unit such as the one in Meta can not play bass at higher levels below 100 Hz .
To gain a real step up , keeping the Metas you can do this:

1. Get proper stands for the Metas , Custom Design make one that is really good and constructed for KEF.
This alone will give you a better sound . Dont put this speaker on a shelf.

2. Install the Metas correctly in the room.

3. You MUST buy two subwoofers, Im sorry, but one sub is not sounding really good. Buying two subs and placing them right beside L and R speaker, you can crossover the Metas much higher in freq and that fact alone makes the Metas sound better , avoiding some of the variable IMD distortion caused by the coaxial design. After buying one more sub, try crossing them 110 Hz with both LP and HP filtering. The subs will be connected in stereo.

 

[Tangband]

I back to this thread because I upgraded the setup with another KC62 so now I own:

Lyngdorf TDAI-3400 + the Metas + their stands + two KC62 subs

I'm looking for an advice.

I listened in a shop a pair of Def Tech D11 and I really liked them (in that room).

Also, I have a very good chance to get an used pair of Tannoy DC8.

Do you think makes sense to try these speakers or do you think my setup is still above and I will almost surely lost time and money?

Oh, you have already bought one sub more to your Meta:s.
Thats good .
I think that buying Def tech or Tannoy is a sidestep and no real upgrade in sound quality. But listen yourself.

Next step up in quality if you ask me, is swapping the Metas and look only for active alternatives. You will not need the Lyngdorf if you buy a pair of Genelec 8330 with GLM. 8330 in my opinion is a slightly better loudspeaker than Kef Meta, mainly because the 8330 is a good executed active design. Being a dsp design, you might also need other subwoofers because of the slight delay.

But maybe the best advice thats free is trying different alternatives for placement of the Metas. Put them where they play bass-tunes the best, without any subs. Then connect the subs.

 

[jaczar]

Best setup in my case (KEF LS50 Meta + KEF KC62 + Hegel H95)
Bass reflex of the LS50 fully plugged
KC62 in the center of the LS50, on the same line as the LS50, crossover 70Hz, phase 180, volume 9 o'clock