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The Truth about many "Audiophile" Piano Recordings

The investigation goes on, and the plot thickens... :)

What about these two objects, they sure look like microphones, or are they parts of the piano?

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The left one could be a microphone, but it's strange that there is no cable coming out that goes over the border of the piano. The right one is to small to be a microphone i think, but i could be wrong. It also looks a bit rare, the only microphone i could think of that it could be is a Schoeps CCM series, and those are all wired microphone, so it should have a cable going out. And it's also strange position to put such a microphone as it will get a lot of mechanical toucing noise from the hammers and so leaning on that brace in the piano body and will mainly give treble notes in the recording (the bass notes is on the other side). They normally put it on an ugly stand for a reason as they are very sensitive and need to be higher to catch the whole piano. Even touching the stand gives disturbance with those.
 
I have been really fascinated with this video recording of Andras Schiff playing Bach Overture and Suites in French Style in B Minor BWV831. The recording quality is also amazing, but I do not see microphone(s) at least in the video image. Can anyone here guess or know the recording technology, engineering (and microphone settings) in this world-music-heritage (IMO) performance and recording?
I'm surprised nobody mentioned this, but the YouTube description says the performance was from Bachfest Leipzig 11.06.2010 and has a link to a playlist that I presume was the complete recital, which also included all 6 French Suites and the Italian Concerto. There is also an interview with Schiff and the venue was the Protestant Reformed Church of Leipzig.

Now you have an additional hour of video to search for microphones. :)
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLhIP1CNbYhVObXv7ByHmE5oETjj6RXyAN

Wait, there's more!
The concert was filmed and released by EuroArts, and available from various sources including Apple Music:
https://music.apple.com/ag/album/andrás-schiff-plays-bach-live-from-bachfest-2010-visual/1595036780
It is probably the entire performance including pauses and breaks. I'm not an Apple subscriber but I can watch previews, including opening and closing credits.
 
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Hi @mSpot,

Thank you indeed for further info...

I just also found that the recital recording is also available in physical DVD and Blu-Ray Disc at EuroArts site. I will be sure to purchase it very soon, and I hope I could find recording/engineering information in the liner notes for the physical discs.
 
Hi @mSpot,

Thank you indeed for further info...

I just also found that the recital recording is also available in physical DVD and Blu-Ray Disc at EuroArts site. I will be sure to purchase it very soon, and I hope I could find recording/engineering information in the liner notes for the physical discs.
Yesterday when I tried to figure out what types of microphones were used for the recording, I stumbled across the name István Berényi, a Hungarian recording engineer. I'm not 100% sure he's the man behind this, but if so, he got a lot of recordings under his belt if you take a look at Discogs.
 
Now you have an additional hour of video to search for microphones. :)
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLhIP1CNbYhVObXv7ByHmE5oETjj6RXyAN

I listened and fully enjoyed whole of the YouTube clips several times; the performance and the recording/sound quality are amazingly wonderful, even though I could not find the microphones in the video images... Again, I believe this Bachfest concert in Leipzig by Andras Schiff is a kind of "World Music Heritage", indeed.

I stumbled across the name István Berényi, a Hungarian recording engineer. I'm not 100% sure he's the man behind this, but if so, he got a lot of recordings under his belt if you take a look at Discogs.

Thank you for your further investigation! As I became rather busy on my daily work because of the BA.5 and BA.2.75 variants of COVID-19 virus in Japan, I would highly appreciate if you could share your further investigation on identification of the microphones and the recording settings/techniques.
 
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Are these microphones??
WS003977.JPG


Edit: These object images are the same as @goat76 kindly posted in #181 above!
 
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Are these microphones??
View attachment 223200
I don't know the picture isn't clear enough. If you look thru the rest of the video you can find shots just outside the same area and it looks like some sort of connector on the surface of the piano there. Maybe it is inductive or something or maybe they've done this for recording (which seems unlikely).
 
While y'all play hide the chalupas, I am recalling a piano recording workshop I saw in U. of Michigan once. One of the examples of playback was recorded with two PZM microphones on the inside of the lid. It was played last, after examples of perhaps a half dozen placements of conventional varieties of high-quality microphones. The astonishing thing was that it sounded terrific, even to very critical ears. All of the case/soundboard/string sounds were well balanced. The music was Schumann, the piano a Steinway 7. The piano lid was open on the short prop. No other mics were used for that take.

These guys were uniformly critical listeners and engineers. And uniformly amazed.
<chuckle> "So, that's how Elton John does it?"
 
PZM microphone or Boundary microphone?
I am just looking at Wiki;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boundary_microphone

Interesting to read this portion; "Since one of the benefits of boundary microphones is that they are less visually obtrusive, they may be available in several colors, to enable audio engineers to select the color that will blend best with the surface they will be placed on or mounted on, in order to further reduce the mic's visual obtrusiveness. Some boundary mics come with a paint mask to facilitate the custom painting of the housing. Custom painting can be used to provide an exact color match with a wall, in cases where the building architects wish there to be minimal visual impact (e.g. a historical church or a Classical music stage)."
 
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PZM microphone or Boundary microphone?
In my experience, PZM (Pressure Zone Mic) and 'boundary layer' mic are essentially the same - just different terms.

Here's one:
 
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Now you have an additional hour of video to search for microphones. :)
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLhIP1CNbYhVObXv7ByHmE5oETjj6RXyAN

I have been much enjoying all of the video clips during the past several days, and it will be certainly continued for the coming days or weeks!

BTW, I found and heard unpleasant low Fq (about 25 Hz - 45 Hz) rather high-level noise (due to some air conditioning problems?) at 6 min 30 sec - 7 min 15 sec in French Suite No.5 in G major BWV816. I confirmed the noise by analyzing with Adobe Audition;
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The noise would be no problem now for me since I can flexibly control (even on-the-fly) my sub-woofer (SW) low-cut (high-pass) XO Fq and/or SW gain controls in software DSP "EKIO".

And using Adobe Audition's flexible sound editing functionalities, I could efficiently level-down (or erase) the noise portion, and save the edited audio track replacing the original one.
WS004002.JPG
 
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Opinions: What do you all think of this...


Vikingur's interpretations are stellar, in my opinion. By the little click bothers me, sounds a bit like a broken metronome?

Seems like a slowed down rework of Prelude & Fugue in C Minor (Well-Tempered Clavier, Book I, No. 2), BWV 847) and kind of part of the "recomposed" Deutsche Grammophon series. I just think it so beautiful that I'd prefer it without the artificial random clicks...?
 
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By the little click bothers me, sounds a bit like a broken metronome?
I guess that it is a few key mechanisms or hammer returns that are clacking when released. They've put the microphone really close to the strings and key mechanisms, so we're probably picking up a piano imperfection that is very near the microphone. Notably the mechanistic noises are quieter or inaudible when he plays high or low notes than in the middle register. I think they've put the mic really close to F4 or therabouts.

I'll wager you can hear it quietly while you're playing, but you'd never notice more than about 3m away from the instrument. It reminds me a lot of what my digital facsimile sounds like if I turn the volume off.
 
One of my all time favorite piano recordings, this is from the early 1960's for Philips. The instrument is a Bechstein, Schnabel's instrument on his first complete recording of Beethoven's 32 sonatas. Both pianists preferred this instrument for its wide tonal range and color, more varied than that of a Steinway or Yamaha. There's a very wide range of color in this instrument, everything is perfectly audible, but nothing is exaggerated. And this is one of the best performances of one of Beethoven's quirkier conceptions:

Sorry to contradict you, but Schnabel recorded his Beethoven sonatas on a Steinway, as shown by the production sheets. This point was revealed by Remy Jacbos, producer at EMI and responsible for reissues. It had been rumored for a long time that it was a Bechstein. But that's not the case.
And Claudio Arrau at Philips made all his records on a Steinway and even for some of them, on an old Steinway from the beginning of the 20th century kept in Chauds-de-Fond in Switzerland.

For the rest, I agree with you, the Philips records recorded by Arrau, whom I had the chance to know well, are very often beautifully captured. Neither too close, nor too far, nor strange timbres. Note that some were recorded in multichannel and are therefore available for some in the form of files from Pentatone.
 
In the 1950's and 1960's, he played a Baldwin and I did see one in his house in 1962. However, I have heard that he often played Steinways in Europe.
shopping

phot_04_middleperiod_1953_ClaudioArrau_CarnegieHall_NewYork_Photographer_f.JPG
Like many pianists, Arrau dealt with Steinway in the United States who did not accept the slightest criticism of their instruments.

If unfortunately a pianist dared to make reservations publicly, then the Steinway service was cut off...

Jorge Bolet had to suffer from this, as did another pianist closer to us who stood in his way and complained in the press about the arrogance of this piano maker. And it was Garrick Ohlsson who had to play on the clumsy Bosendorfers...

In the United States, there was Baldwin and also Chickering.
 
Opinions: What do you all think of this...


Vikingur's interpretations are stellar, in my opinion. By the little click bothers me, sounds a bit like a broken metronome?

Seems like a slowed down rework of Prelude & Fugue in C Minor (Well-Tempered Clavier, Book I, No. 2), BWV 847) and kind of part of the "recomposed" Deutsche Grammophon series. I just think it so beautiful that I'd prefer it without the artificial random clicks...?
That it is not a natural concert grand piano. Perhaps an upright piano, but also perhaps a clavichord, which would explain the sound of the keys.

(PS I don't like this pianist who I heard in public and who acts more as a clever person than he is really interesting when he is not helped by the spells of the sound engineers who create a discographic sound that 'he is not in a concert hall where suddenly his playing becomes banal and ordinary.)
 
Taking the piano is very complex... and also depends on the repertoire and the pianist.
Gould, for example, could be closely recorded in Bach or Mozart because his playing, with very little pedal, was also with reduced dynamics.

Leave the microphones in the same place, close to the strings, and ask a pianist with a wider range of sound, less articulate, and great dynamics to record Schumann's Carnaval, Liszt's Sonata or Gaspard de la nuit and the sound of the disc will be terrible...

Among the ugliest piano recordings in the industry are the Decca from the 1970s: with their Deccas's tree , plus two mics placed at the tail so that the sound of the hammers arrives at the same time along a horizontal line and other microphones... It's atrocious because at the end of the piano strings facing the pianist, this is the place where the piano sounds the worst, the most metallic...
We always forget that the sound of the piano is what is created approximately 2 m from its wide open lid...
The sound that the pianist hears from his seat (I am a trained pianist) is complex because it combines direct sound, sound returned from the room and the effect produced by the fact that the sound is produced. Put a couple of microphones right there and the sound won't be very good either and won't match what the pianist hears...
 
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