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The perfect speaker is room dependent - wide vs. narrow directivity and more

Lorenzo74

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Is that not the goal of active speakers like Dutch & Dutch or Genelec? Or are you discussing only passive speakers without room correction?

today best example are Kii three (low interaction with the room) and Beolab 80 (adjustable directivity).

D&D is a great example how a speaker can interact as low as possible in mid and high frequency (to reduce early reflections) and largely leverage front wall to strength low frequency.

the speaker closer to a perfect speaker is the one that preserve the music content "regardless" the room type. so up today, to me, Kii Three with BXT or anything well designed that implement correctly the DIRAC UNISON (as soon as it will be release outside of automotive environment).
my best
L.
 

Lorenzo74

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I wish to hear the soundstage, wide or narrow, that was recorded, not one imposed by the listening room.
yes!
-that's why you need to address early reflections to an attenuation of about 20dB for the first 10-20ms...
 

Thomas_A

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As can a strong treble and even bass roll-off, or channel bleeding for that matter.

Depends if you include inherent flaws of the reproduction system as such or the system including poor execution of the same system.
 

Emlin

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I believe that the solution to your wish are headphones, not speakers then.

Why, when good speakers in a good room can do the job? And I've never experienced a perfect soundstage from headphones.
 

Harmonie

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Why, when good speakers in a good room can do the job? And I've never experienced a perfect soundstage from headphones.

You indicated correctly "a good room".
But your earlier post indicated " I wish to hear the soundstage, wide or narrow, that was recorded, not one imposed by the listening room. "
so if not dependent by a listening room, only can's may please you.
My point is that speakers depend on the room and may be corrected (at a certain extend) with some correction.
 

Emlin

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You indicated correctly "a good room".
But your earlier post indicated " I wish to hear the soundstage, wide or narrow, that was recorded, not one imposed by the listening room. "
so if not dependent by a listening room, only can's may please you.
My point is that speakers depend on the room and may be corrected (at a certain extend) with some correction.

What I said was correct. I do not wish to have the soundstage imposed by the room, so I set things up so that I don't.
 

o2so

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Could anyone kindly provide examples of narrow dispersion monitors that don't cost 10 grand or more?
 

Duke

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Could anyone kindly provide examples of narrow dispersion monitors that don't cost 10 grand or more?

Are you using the word "monitor" to mean "studio monitor", or to mean "home audio speaker that goes on a stand"?
 

o2so

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Are you using the word "monitor" to mean "studio monitor", or to mean "home audio speaker that goes on a stand"?
I am thinking of creating a near field desk set up in which I hear as little room as possible. So I think I mean studio monitor
 

Coach_Kaarlo

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Try this recording made in Aalto's Ristinkirkko church with two pairs of mics (main + ambience):

DxP2a3L.png


https://www.eclassical.com/performers/kavakos-leonidas/sibelius-violin-concerto-in-d-minor-op47.html

Also available on Primephonic if one is a subscriber.

https://play.primephonic.com/album/7318590005002
 

MediumRare

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I am thinking of creating a near field desk set up in which I hear as little room as possible. So I think I mean studio monitor
If you are meaning - literally - a desk set up, the speakers will be 3 to 4 feet from your ears, and angled toward you and away from lateral walls, right? In that case "nearfield" confirms you will not be perceiving reflections as such. This monitor tests superbly, is cheap, and has about 50 degree dispersion. The Genelecs tend to have 60 degree dispersion.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...eumann-kh80-dsp-monitor-measurements-3.14637/
Of course, you'll need a sub.
 

MediumRare

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You don't have to agree with or like it (I personally don't) but it still something that some people perceive as beneficial.

And I always add this image as complementary illustration of the effects of side-wall reflections:

XAgn5Xt.png
With all due respect, I think the visual analogy is misleading - it implies a loss of acuity from receiving two images. This is false.

With vision, our brains integrate two quite different images (one from each eye) to create 3D perception. We've evolved this capability over more than 100 million years.

The only people who perceive "double vision" have a pathology in their visual system.

Perhaps that is why the concept of aural "smearing" is controversial. Our brains have evolved to interpret the mix of direct and reflected sounds (within limits) correctly, not with "double vision". Consider bats or some blind humans who can perceive through echolocation. The complex reflections are correctly and precisely interpreted by the brain. Of course, echos, nodes, etc. beyond a certain level will impair perception. But it's not a given that a moderate levels will.
 

tuga

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With all due respect, I think the visual analogy is misleading - it implies a loss of acuity from receiving two images. This is false.

With vision, our brains integrate two quite different images (one from each eye) to create 3D perception. We've evolved this capability over more than 100 million years.

The only people who perceive "double vision" have a pathology in their visual system.

Perhaps that is why the concept of aural "smearing" is controversial. Our brains have evolved to interpret the mix of direct and reflected sounds (within limits) correctly, not with "double vision". Consider bats or some blind humans who can perceive through echolocation. The complex reflections are correctly and precisely interpreted by the brain. Of course, echos, nodes, etc. beyond a certain level will impair perception. But it's not a given that a moderate levels will.
I’ve seen 3D echos os foetuses. Weird things.
 

RayDunzl

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Consider bats or some blind humans who can perceive through echolocation. The complex reflections are correctly and precisely interpreted by the brain.


If I had bat ears, the reflections would probably indicate to me I was listening in a small confined cubical space, just as my eyes do, when open.

I don't think it would enhance the recording.
 
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MediumRare

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If I had bat ears, the reflections would probably indicate to me I was listening in a small confined cubical space, just as my eyes do, when open.

I don't think it would enhance the recording.
I hope your confined cubical space has no walls including steel bars. ;)

The point I was trying to make is that we don't automatically/universally perceive sound reflections as smearing.
 

Duke

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I am thinking of creating a near field desk set up in which I hear as little room as possible. So I think I mean studio monitor

It's difficult to get a narrow radiation pattern from a small speaker. A waveguide is at best only effective down to the frequency where its effective width is 1/2 wavelength across, and that's not counting the roundovers needed to minimize coloration. Then we have the midbass section, which will use a small cone and therefore have a wide pattern. Cardioid loading is theoretically an option but it's only effective over a limited bandwidth, so a speaker with a cardioid midbass will have to be a three-way, which is okay I guess, but that starts to get big and expensive for a desktop speaker.

So I think the radiation pattern control which can be feasibly shoehorned into a desktop speaker will be fairly modest, and that the most effective mechanism for limiting room interaction will be the nearfield proximity of the speakers. Much as I think radiation pattern control is very cool, imo it doesn't add much to a nearfield setup.
 

Duke

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I also agree to the consensus that there is a trade off between envelopment and accuracy.

That tradeoff is one of the ways home audio typically falls short of the real thing: At a good seat in a concert hall you have BOTH envelopment and accuracy. Only they don't call it "accuracy"; they call it "clarity" or "presence" or something like that.

And envelopment is much harder to obtain with narrow directivity.

THREE things must be present to enable envelopment: A clear stream of direct sound; then a relatively reflection-free time interval; then a clear stream of reverberant sound. Narrow directivity speakers well set-up can do the first and second, but may fail to generate enough later-arrival reverberant energy to accomplish the third and enable envelopment.

There is an additional complication in home audio: The envelopment cues we want are the ones already ON THE RECORDING. (Our rooms are too small to generate envelopment remotely approaching that of a good venue). So how are the envelopment cues on the recordings delivered to our ears? By the playback room's reflections!

To the extent that our speakers and room acoustics effectively deliver the venue cues while simultaneously MINIMIZING the playback room's "small room signature", we can hope to enjoy envelopment with a good recording. This falls into the category of "easier said than done" of course.

With narrow-pattern speakers, we need to preserve what precious little later-arriving in-room reflections exist, as those reflections are the carriers of the envelopment cues on the recording.

From my experience wide directivity speaker in highly damped rooms doesn't provide convincing envelopment of the sound.

Brilliant observation!

We get our venue-size and envelopment cues primarily from the reverberation tails which are on the recording. And those reveration tails need to be delivered from all around, which means that they need to be delivered by the playback room's reflections. IF we truncate their delivery by overdamping the room, we kill off all hope of enjoying envelopment. Since a wide-pattern speaker starts out with more energy going into the reflections (including the highly beneficial later ones) than a narrow-pattern speaker, a wide-pattern speaker can "survive" more in-room absorption than a narrow-pattern speaker can.

(Along similar lines, in a setup which inherently enables a relatively weak reverberant field, a wide-pattern speaker will generally be preferable to a narrow-pattern speaker. Therefore in my opinion the fairly large Harman speaker-shuffler room, with the speaker positioned along the centerline and the distant room boundaries apparently having some broadband absorptive characteristics, inherently favors wide-pattern speakers.)

From my experience wide directivity speaker only sound very good in the near field. Like the approach of Linkwitz with the near omnidirectional speakers in the middle of the room. With this you will get less early reflections and more later reflections.

In my opinion "less early reflections and more later reflections" is the key to combining accuracy AND envelopment. In other words, I'm not sure that a tradeoff between the two is inevitable.
 
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bigjacko

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If highly damped room does not provide envelopment, what about diffuse the sound using diffuser? I imagine the sound will hit our ears , but majority of sound will scatter around in the room, very few end up in our ears eventually, others just die down. If what I said is true, what is the difference between diffuse and reflection and do they provide envelopment?
 
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test1223

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In my opinion "less early reflections and more later reflections" is the key to combining accuracy AND envelopment. In other words, I'm not sure that a tradeoff between the two is inevitable.
Yes, I think it is true. But you also can get only one of the two much more easily.

What I wrote earlier about the tradeoff shouldn't imply that you can't get both. But It is much harder to get both and with only stereo there is a limit so you will not get both maxed out.

If you have a deeper look at it and include frequency dependency you can go another step ahead. The tonal perception of direct sound is different to the perception of diffuse sound, due to the head related transfer functions. So if you have a speaker room combination which creates perfekt diffuse later reflections and a speaker room combination which doesn't. There is also a tonal difference between these two scenarios.
So the circle of confusions has another aspect...

If you are experimenting with additional speakers, which should create the envelopment you always have to take the room into the calculation and therefore such speakers are only really good if you can adjust /place and equalize them well. One really rare thing which sounds really good are later diffuse reflections in the high frequencies and it is very hard to achieve.

Best
Thomas
 
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