The perfect speaker is room dependent - wide vs. narrow directivity and more

[Duke]

I think for a living room / listening room system one should go for reverb and early reflections that is more attenuated / absorbed at the hf to give a sloping freq / decay time.

There are arguments both ways so I tried it both ways, by varying the spectral balance of the reflected sound independent of the direct sound. My conclusions are a bit different from yours, but it may be that the most desirable spectral balance for the reverberant energy varies on a case-by-case basis, so in most of my designs it is user-adjustable.

 

[test1223]

Hey,

sorry for the long time without a response.

I learned the hard way that they need a lot of distance to the sidewalls to work well, so it was a good speaker for long-wall placement in a wide room, but not a very good speaker for more conventional situations.

Yes I can confirm that.

Imo that's a very good idea. What made you try adding backfiring speakers to a horn system? I do the same thing (though not with an "all horn" main system).

That was not my idea and I have not enough space for such speakers. Some of the hardcore audiophiles tried this and it made a lot of sense, since you can combine a stronger diffuse sound field with avoiding strong first reflections.
If you do such things with normal speakers, which did not provide a narrow directivity, the listening distance has to be small. It is like the Linkwitz approach with the Pluto speaker. Otherwise the sound gets "blurry" from my experience.

Best
Thomas

 

[andymok]

I've always had a question in mind

Which one should point to our ears, tweeter or acoustic centre/axis?

 

[AnalogSteph]

I've always had a question in mind

Which one should point to our ears, tweeter or acoustic centre/axis?

That depends on the speaker construction in question.

Some manufacturers will actually specify a reference axis, otherwise you have to guess. You may have noticed that this has been coming up in Amir's speaker reviews here and there.

 

[tuga]

A wide dispersion speaker will throw a much bigger soundstage.
I've listened in a fairly large room with heigh ceilings which had virtually no absorption but did have a lot of diffusion and with a wide dispersion speaker the whole room came alive and the soundstage was absolutely huge. And compared this in that room with more narrow dispersion speakers which had waveguides (among them K+H O300) and the soundstage just collapsed to a mostly inbetween the speakers ordeal.

With "real" stereo recordings (as opposed to studio mixes) the soundstage is expected to be restricted to the space in-between the speakers:

(source)

Side-wall reflections produce an artifact which is perceived as wider soundstage and phantom images and more envelopment.

 

[RayDunzl]

Opinion:

Side-wall reflections produce an artifact

Agree

which is perceived as wider soundstage

Smear

and phantom images

The speakers should produce the phantom images, not the reflections

and more envelopment.

I get better envelopment with my beamy dipoles than my dispersing JBLs.

 

[tuga]

Opinion:



Agree



Smear



The speakers should produce the phantom images, not the reflections



I get better envelopment with my beamy dipoles than my dispersing JBLs.

Toole's research seems to indicate that wider dispersion and side-wall reflections increase the sense of immersion or envelopment.
And if one thinks about music played in a church or the sound we make when singing in the shower it is easy to understand why.

 

[RayDunzl]

Toole's research seems to indicate that wider dispersion and side-wall reflections increase the sense of immersion or envelopment.

So does the House of Mirrors at the carnival.

And if one thinks about music played in a church or the sound we make when singing in the shower it is easy to understand why.

Record in the church, and play it back there, and see if it turns to mush,

You can try it at home - record a recording at the listening position and play it back and see how it sounds.

Through headphones, probably not too bad, and like your room. Played back in the room, probably not so good.

I prefer not to add to the recorded ambience.

 

[Senior NEET Engineer]

Toole's research seems to indicate that wider dispersion and side-wall reflections increase the sense of immersion or envelopment.
And if one thinks about music played in a church or the sound we make when singing in the shower it is easy to understand why.

I don't follow this analogy. When we play music in our systems, it is not just the raw sound of the instruments but also the spatial information embedded in the music. In your example it is just the raw sound of the instruments being reproduced.

 

[MediumRare]

I don’t believe side-wall reflections, if sufficiently delayed, are perceived as smear, rather they pull the soundstage beyond the edges of the speakers leaving the positioning of sources in between the speakers rock solid. This can be enhanced by studio techniques as well, e.g. https://blog.landr.com/stereo-widening/

 

[RayDunzl]

Wide vs Narrow dispersion

Reflections in this room as seen in the Impulse Response.

As much as 20dB difference, in reflection vs direct, Maybe 10dB difference on average.

 

[Emlin]

I wish to hear the soundstage, wide or narrow, that was recorded, not one imposed by the listening room.

 

[andreasmaaan]

I don't follow this analogy. When we play music in our systems, it is not just the raw sound of the instruments but also the spatial information embedded in the music. In your example it is just the raw sound of the instruments being reproduced.

I’m wondering, what do you mean exactly by “embedded spatial information”? Are you talking about recordings made using specific microphone techniques? And if so, which techniques?

 

[Emlin]

I’m wondering, what do you mean exactly by “embedded spatial information”? Are you talking about recordings made using specific microphone techniques? And if so, which techniques?

I suspect he means the reverb of the recording space, or artificially applied.

 

[Thomas_A]

Reflections if used correctly can reduce the inherent flaws of stereo reproduction.

 

[tuga]

So does the House of Mirrors at the carnival.

You don't have to agree with or like it (I personally don't) but it still something that some people perceive as beneficial.

Record in the church, and play it back there, and see if it turns to mush,

Depends on where you put the mic.
I used to go to the Monday weekly recital at the local church before the Pandemic and depending on how close I sat the ratio between direct and reflected sound varied as well as the amount of detail and focus and of envelopment.

I prefer not to add to the recorded ambience.

I prefer to listen to the recorded spatial cues too.
Overlaying one's listening room acoustic to the recorded ambience obstructs the illusion of being trasported to the venue in adequatelly produced classical music recording.


Since you mentioned house of mirrors, I find this illustration by Linkwitz quite elucidating:

And I always add this image as complementary illustration of the effects of side-wall reflections:

 

[tuga]

Reflections if used correctly can reduce the inherent flaws of stereo reproduction.

As can a strong treble and even bass roll-off, or channel bleeding for that matter.

 

[tuga]

I’m wondering, what do you mean exactly by “embedded spatial information”? Are you talking about recordings made using specific microphone techniques? And if so, which techniques?

Try this recording made in Aalto's Ristinkirkko church with two pairs of mics (main + ambience):

https://www.eclassical.com/performers/kavakos-leonidas/sibelius-violin-concerto-in-d-minor-op47.html

 

[digitalfrost]

I don’t believe side-wall reflections, if sufficiently delayed, are perceived as smear, rather they pull the soundstage beyond the edges of the speakers leaving the positioning of sources in between the speakers rock solid. This can be enhanced by studio techniques as well, e.g. https://blog.landr.com/stereo-widening/

My speakers have a corner to the right hand side, but not to the left. I.e. Left side has the side wall missing. I often get fantastic sound that is far outside the speaker, but much more so on the right side, not on the left. So from my anecdotal evidence, you're right.

 

[wwenze]

Everything is best done in moderation. Speakers in a school hall/gym/whatever you call those, really really bad.

On the other extreme, headphones. Even with crossfeed and convolution they still don't sound like speakers.