The "audiophile" cable test

[Perryb]

Hello, this is my first post on the forum (having lurked about on here for a number of years and thank you all for all the highly informative posts!).

So a quick preamble:

For many years I have happily accepted that aside from build quality there is very little or nothing about audio cables that affects audio quality (eg high end studios don't wire up with mega buck cabling so why should a domestic setup be any different). As a result I've never listened for or perceived any difference between cables.

Nothing dogmatic, it was simply something I didn't have to worry about beyond feeling sorry for people forking out kilobucks for fancy cabling.

So over the last few years I've become interested in IEMs and headphones - a great way to enjoy hifi in a context where I can't really play my speakers very loud.

I've accrued one or two IEMs (mainly budget and low mid range) and have found myself with sets that have annoyingly flimsy cables that tangle easily. So I decided to get some replacements.

Long story short: for a couple of weeks I managed to convince myself different cables have different audio effects - bigger bass, wider stereo image, better highs. The whole gamut.

This was despite my continued skepticism, but over time my skepticism had the ironic effect of reinforcing the impression I was certain I was hearing!

Surely a rational individual could not dupe themselves?

So I rationalised what I thought I was hearing: these tiny little balanced armatures and microscopically thin beryllium diaphragms must be uniquely sensitive and that, coupled with the proximity to my eardrum was palpably affecting the sound.

So I ordered more cables (nothing expensive) - what might oil impregnated litz copper (or whatever) sound like? What about silver-plated carbon fibre OCC copper 24 strand etc yadda yadda?

Then I realised where the problem was:

1: Between swapping cables there was a gap of about 20 to 30 seconds where I was trying to hold onto the memory of this cymbal sound or that syntheiser texture, the fatness of the bass.
2: Ear fit and position is critical to the sound (as is eartip choice) so there's no way to guarantee perfect exact positioning between changing cables.
3: If I felt that a particular element of the sound hadn't changed to my satisfaction I would find another element I was sure I hadn't really heard before then concentrate on that, and so back to the previous cable, and so on.

So a couple of weeks in I finally realise I can't actually hear any difference after all, obviously.

So it dawned on me that rather than testing the cable (graphs don't prove anything to the golden eared, dyed in the wool audiophile) there is feasibly a way to test the listener and in a manner that would I think be pretty conclusive.

What you need is an amplifier with two or more sockets and a corresponding good quality IEM (or headphone, earbud etc) with two or more inputs. Multiple cables of various types and price point, and the facility on your amplifier to switch instantly and seamlessly (no clicks or pops if possible) between each one while playing the source music continuously. That way it would be possible to switch cables without changing the postion of the IEM and the test subject can just sit still and concentrate on the music.

Because if there is a radical difference between a $5 and a $300 cable, you're going to hear the switch right?

You might even introduce confounding visual and or audio cues that you might tell the test subject will signal when the device will switch to the next cable. You could either make the switch or keep it in the same place. You could use multiples of the exact same cable (covered with a masking sleeve so there are no visual clues about what they are listening on).

And so on.

There would be numerous test configurations.

Anyhow I had to get that off my chest, but I thought my little journey there and back might amuse a few people on here.

At least I now have a bunch of really nice, cute looking, brightly coloured and interestingly braided cables I can match my outfits with going forward! Audio jewelry basically.

 

[SIY]

Surely a rational individual could not dupe themselves?

Only if they're human.

 

[kemmler3D]

Hello, this is my first post on the forum (having lurked about on here for a number of years and thank you all for all the highly informative posts!).

So a quick preamble:

For many years I have happily accepted that aside from build quality there is very little or nothing about audio cables that affects audio quality (eg high end studios don't wire up with mega buck cabling so why should a domestic setup be any different). As a result I've never listened for or perceived any difference between cables.

Nothing dogmatic, it was simply something I didn't have to worry about beyond feeling sorry for people forking out kilobucks for fancy cabling.

So over the last few years I've become interested in IEMs and headphones - a great way to enjoy hifi in a context where I can't really play my speakers very loud.

I've accrued one or two IEMs (mainly budget and low mid range) and have found myself with sets that have annoyingly flimsy cables that tangle easily. So I decided to get some replacements.

Long story short: for a couple of weeks I managed to convince myself different cables have different audio effects - bigger bass, wider stereo image, better highs. The whole gamut.

This was despite my continued skepticism, but over time my skepticism had the ironic effect of reinforcing the impression I was certain I was hearing!

Surely a rational individual could not dupe themselves?

So I rationalised what I thought I was hearing: these tiny little balanced armatures and microscopically thin beryllium diaphragms must be uniquely sensitive and that, coupled with the proximity to my eardrum was palpably affecting the sound.

So I ordered more cables (nothing expensive) - what might oil impregnated litz copper (or whatever) sound like? What about silver-plated carbon fibre OCC copper 24 strand etc yadda yadda?

Then I realised where the problem was:

1: Between swapping cables there was a gap of about 20 to 30 seconds where I was trying to hold onto the memory of this cymbal sound or that syntheiser texture, the fatness of the bass.
2: Ear fit and position is critical to the sound (as is eartip choice) so there's no way to guarantee perfect exact positioning between changing cables.
3: If I felt that a particular element of the sound hadn't changed to my satisfaction I would find another element I was sure I hadn't really heard before then concentrate on that, and so back to the previous cable, and so on.

So a couple of weeks in I finally realise I can't actually hear any difference after all, obviously.

So it dawned on me that rather than testing the cable (graphs don't prove anything to the golden eared, dyed in the wool audiophile) there is feasibly a way to test the listener and in a manner that would I think be pretty conclusive.

What you need is an amplifier with two or more sockets and a corresponding good quality IEM (or headphone, earbud etc) with two or more inputs. Multiple cables of various types and price point, and the facility on your amplifier to switch instantly and seamlessly (no clicks or pops if possible) between each one while playing the source music continuously. That way it would be possible to switch cables without changing the postion of the IEM and the test subject can just sit still and concentrate on the music.

Because if there is a radical difference between a $5 and a $300 cable, you're going to hear the switch right?

You might even introduce confounding visual and or audio cues that you might tell the test subject will signal when the device will switch to the next cable. You could either make the switch or keep it in the same place. You could use multiples of the exact same cable (covered with a masking sleeve so there are no visual clues about what they are listening on).

And so on.

There would be numerous test configurations.

Anyhow I had to get that off my chest, but I thought my little journey there and back might amuse a few people on here.

At least I now have a bunch of really nice, cute looking, brightly coloured and interestingly braided cables I can match my outfits with going forward! Audio jewelry basically.

Audio jewelry is a good use for IEM cables... as for your test, it's plausible but I think a better approach would be to measure the impedance of the cable and see if there's any plausible difference in the first place.

As for your proposed test method... I don't know of any IEMs that have multiple inputs on the same ear.

But maybe you could rig up a cable that itself has multiple inputs spliced to it, which you connect the various cables to, and then switch the outputs to test out the different cables.

Anyway, I don't think it would be worth the trouble. But if you really wanted to do it, you could.

And welcome to ASR!

 

[DVDdoug]

I'm fairly confident you're fooling yourself...

Headphone & IEM cables are usually the least critical audio cables. They don't have to handle much current and you can't pick-up enough electrical noise to "power" a headphone.

I'm not sure if it's possible or practical to do a blind listening test, but...

1: Between swapping cables there was a gap of about 20 to 30 seconds where I was trying to hold onto the memory of this cymbal sound or that syntheiser texture, the fatness of the bass.

If you can't tell after 20 or 30 seconds, does it matter? Is it worth spending an extra dollar, or worrying about it, if you can't tell the next day which one you're listening to?

2: Ear fit and position is critical to the sound (as is eartip choice) so there's no way to guarantee perfect exact positioning between changing cables.

In a blind ABX test? you'd pull them out of your ear when it's switched from A to X (or B to X) even when you are X is A, and you aren't really switching. The ABX Statistics are still valid, even if A sounds a little different every time.

3: If I felt that a particular element of the sound hadn't changed to my satisfaction I would find another element I was sure I hadn't really heard before then concentrate on that, and so back to the previous cable, and so on.

That's fine too in an ABX test. BUT it's statistical... If you run the test enough times the odds of "guessing" correctly 10 out of 10 times (for example) increases and sooner or later you'll get a "good result". It's not valid if you run the test over-and-over until you get a result you like.

However, if you find part of a recording that reveals a difference, you should be able to repeat the test multiple times and get good results every time.

 

[DanielT]

Anyway, I don't think it would be worth the trouble. But if you really wanted to do it, you could.

And welcome to ASR!

I'm fairly confident you're fooling yourself...

Headphone & IEM cables are usually the least critical audio cables. They don't have to handle much current and you can't pick-up enough electrical noise to "power" a headphone.

Worth pointing out what you wrote but IF TS Perryb still want to test, why not a splitter:


Then two different cables. You have to solve it somehow so that you don't know which cable it is that you put into the amplifier, so you do the test blind.

Cables can make a difference, but maybe not in the way you first think. Too long cables, too many, too unshielded can pick up noise. It may become audible. See here:

Can you hear a difference between audio cables? ABX test

Following the thread https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/stereophile-and-audio-cables.53011/ I have prepared a listening test with 2 different audio cables. The cables are as dissimilar as they can be. The test files can be downloaded from https://pmacura.cz/cable1-2.zip...

audiosciencereview.com

But if it's not something you've experienced with your cables, I'd eat my hat if you could spot them in a real blind test.

 

[Perryb]

I'm fairly confident you're fooling yourself...

Headphone & IEM cables are usually the least critical audio cables. They don't have to handle much current and you can't pick-up enough electrical noise to "power" a headphone.

I'm not sure if it's possible or practical to do a blind listening test, but...


If you can't tell after 20 or 30 seconds, does it matter? Is it worth spending an extra dollar, or worrying about it, if you can't tell the next day which one you're listening to?


In a blind ABX test? you'd pull them out of your ear when it's switched from A to X (or B to X) even when you are X is A, and you aren't really switching. The ABX Statistics are still valid, even if A sounds a little different every time.


That's fine too in an ABX test. BUT it's statistical... If you run the test enough times the odds of "guessing" correctly 10 out of 10 times (for example) increases and sooner or later you'll get a "good result". It's not valid if you run the test over-and-over until you get a result you like.

However, if you find part of a recording that reveals a difference, you should be able to repeat the test multiple times and get good results every time.

What I'm suggesting is a specially designed rig - a custom amp and a custom IEM that allows two or more cables to be attached at the same time.

The idea would be to switch seamlessly from one cable to the next without having to remove the IEM from the subject's ears. And ask them to report on what they are hearing.

After my own experience I'm thinking about how to remove the factors I think led me to believe I could hear differences - namely the gap in listening time and that between changes there is no guarantee the eartip fit is consistent.

I think it would be an interesting experiment, if it's at all technically feasible.

 

[Blumlein 88]

If the sound changes at the driver in the headphone the signal it is getting must have changed. Probably easier to tap that signal at the earspeaker and measure with the different cables. You could do this to a much higher level of precision without all the issues of doing a test with listeners. Plus pretty high, very high, like almost certainty that nothing is happening here. If it is, it would be at most some impedance effect in different cables and nothing exotic.

 

[Perryb]

If the sound changes at the driver in the headphone the signal it is getting must have changed. Probably easier to tap that signal at the earspeaker and measure with the different cables. You could do this to a much higher level of precision without all the issues of doing a test with listeners. Plus pretty high, very high, like almost certainty that nothing is happening here. If it is, it would be at most some impedance effect in different cables and nothing exotic.

I guess my thread title is unhelpful, I'm more interested in testing whether listeners can tell a difference.

I don't really have the technical know how to judge if that is a strictly scientific test, but I'd imagine it might produce statistically useful results, plus it offers multiple ways to run the test.

 

[DanielT]

I guess my thread title is unhelpful, I'm more interested in testing whether listeners can tell a difference.

I don't really have the technical know how to judge if that is a strictly scientific test, but I'd imagine it might produce statistically useful results, plus it offers multiple ways to run the test.

Do what you think seems fun. If there is nothing wrong with the cables, if you have connected them correctly, if no pick up noise via the cables occurs plus you use the correct test method, then it is very unlikely that you can spot any differences. BUT it is the practicality and testing that gives the "aha" experience.

The smaller the differences, of course, the harder or impossible to spot differences. For example, because modern op amps are extremely high-performance devices, it's basically impossible to tell them apart in a blind test. That under the conditions that the blind test is performed correctly and that the various op amps that are tested technically fit in the device X that they were popped into. Cgallery will test it,( or if already done that?) In any case page 30 , #590,#591,#598,#603 in the thread below there are some different blind tests which you can test yourself:

Replace OP amps. Completely pointless, or not?

Any change (not just OAs) has to have a goal. So,what is one try to achieve changing an OA? Is it deeper lows?Is it lower audible distortion,IMD,etc? Is it something mysterious else? Except for the "something else" answer non of the above will happen and no goal will be reached. It can change...

audiosciencereview.com

My own blind test, compared to switching modern op amps, should be easier but I couldn't tell them apart:

What is this? No golden ears!

Got an idea last week. Connected a Blu-ray, Sony BDP-S570, and a CD- player Marantz CD5001 to the pre amp. It has line selectors. Went to the local flea market and managed to find duplicates, CDs. Exactly the same CDs, the same recording on the discs. Same master. Enter with the discs in the...

audiosciencereview.com

But with a real big difference? 300B SET vs. Straight Wire with Gain where the 300B tube amp has SINAD of 22dB (7.9% THD +N)? Also, what do those who tested prefer?
The result:

Take the blind challenge! 300B SET vs. Straight Wire with Gain

The challenge: How does a budget 300B SET compare to a "straight wire with gain"? You tell me. It's time to put your ears to the challenge. Poll is open for 14 days. No peeking at the results. Test Setup: I connected a Topping D90, set it at 0 dB volume, to a budget 300B single-ended...

audiosciencereview.com

 

[Perryb]

I think it would be a fun experiment to set up, and it must be technically feasible. I think it would work as a blind test.

 

[Speedskater]

The only differences in headphone cables will be mechanical differences. Things like flexibility, handling noise and robustness.

 

[Perryb]

Exactly. I'd be interested to find out if such a test could persuade someone who says they perceive audible differences, that actually they can't.

 

[Chrispy]

You could buy two of same iems and use a Van Alstine ABX comparator perhaps

 

[OK1]

You could buy two of same iems and use a Van Alstine ABX comparator perhaps

The challenge with IEM's is even between left and right earpieces of the same pair, some of us can hear obvious differences, even without the use of any measurement tools. Inconsistencies in audio drivers, on headphones and IEMs, is one of my pet peeves. I use a mono signal and placing the two earpieces close to the same ear, in software, play back the audio in one earpiece after the other, and can easily hear the difference, in level and frequency response.

So not sure there is enough consistency in manufacturing and quality control, to benefit from any consistent results between two different pairs.

 

[EERecordist]

Hello, welcome to ASR.

Our principal has built up a test equipment library and the knowledge to use it. That includes headphones and IEM test fixtures because headphones and IEMs notoriously hard to test. Each ear is shaped differently, then there is the coupling between the eardrum and cochlea. Over time we may damage all the hair cells in the cochlea. Our auditory cortex is individually trained.

What you might consider is renting a multi-frequency LCR meter. L is inductance, C is capacitance and R is resistance. LC and R characterizes the cable. For instance, an https://www.tequipment.net/Instek/LCR-6020/LCR-Meters/. Maybe if there is an engineering or technical school nearby, you could find a student collaborator. Then you could test the cables. You could test them with an D to A and A to D audio interface and the free software we discuss here all the time, with the cable as a loop between the output and the input you would be able to objectively evaluate cables.

 

[Chrispy]

The challenge with IEM's is even between left and right earpieces of the same pair, some of us can hear obvious differences, even without the use of any measurement tools. Inconsistencies in audio drivers, on headphones and IEMs, is one of my pet peeves. I use a mono signal and placing the two earpieces close to the same ear, in software, play back the audio in one earpiece after the other, and can easily hear the difference, in level and frequency response.

So not sure there is enough consistency in manufacturing and quality control, to benefit from any consistent results between two different pairs.

Then sounds like not worth worrying about....

 

[Speedskater]

What you might consider is renting a multi-frequency LCR meter. L is inductance, C is capacitance and R is resistance. LC and R characterizes the cable. For instance

For a analog interconnect cable L & C don't matter and only the shield R might matter for very long cables.
But for a digital interconnect L & C do matter. The longer the cable the more they matter.

 

[EERecordist]

For a analog interconnect cable L & C don't matter and only the shield R might matter for very long cables.
But for a digital interconnect L & C do matter. The longer the cable the more they matter.

Agree. If the LCR measurements are the same 20Hz to 20KHz, and a network analysis of the source, the cable, and the load shows no impact in the audio band, there is no explanation for them sounding different.

 

[SIY]

If the LCR measurements are the same 20Hz to 20KHz

Even if they're not, they would have to be wildly different to have an actual sonic impact.

 

[Speedskater]

The only audible/measurable differences in semi-reasonable analog interconnects will be in noise or interference.