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Is there a thread/sticky that debunks cable myths?

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mcochris

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I frequently come across questions from people about the claims made by cable manufacturers. For example:
  • Does oxygen-free copper make a difference?
  • Is thicker gauge always better?
  • Do expensive cables sound better?
  • Can cables actually affect sound quality?
I’m looking for a solid, science-based resource or sticky thread on ASR that addresses these kinds of questions and helps cut through the marketing hype.

Does such a thread already exist here?
 
  • Does oxygen-free copper make a difference?
  • Is thicker gauge always better?
  • Do expensive cables sound better?
  • Can cables actually affect sound quality?
  • No
  • No
  • No
  • Power cables no, speaker cables... sometimes (excessive length, inappropriate gauge), generally not
There are heaps of individual threads about cables in general. The massive Snake Oil thread also contains discussion regarding cable myths.


JSmith
 
I think there’s a thread where Amir tested cheap vs expensive RCA interconnects, but I can’t find it…
 
I think there’s a thread where Amir tested cheap vs expensive RCA interconnects, but I can’t find it…
Likely one of these;


JSmith
 
Also threads here have a lot of information:



I also recommend this paper: https://tmr-audio.de/pdf/kabl_cap.pdf By Fred E Davis from 1991. He builds an accurate model of amplifier, speaker and wire and shows that there are measurable differences and some may even be audible. He identifies multiple insulated strands as probably optimal, but considers:
"Of the two-wire cables, 12 AWG provided the best performance with reactive loads, while both smaller and larger gauges (3-7 AWG and 18 AWG) showed greater high-frequency drop and interaction with capacitive reactance in a load. 12 AWG seems more than adequate, even for demanding systems, high power levels, and reasonable lengths." Fred E. Davis 1991
 
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Our friend Archimago has done extensive and excellent work and his conclusion is apart from some insertion loss resulting from differing resistances of the cables he tested (and those losses are quite small), there's really no audible differences in anything from a patch of zip cord on up to just about anything not explicitly designed as a tone control. And if you're using cables as your tone control, we need to sit down and have a long talk.

 
My first post,

The RCA connectors with cables; as stated in the many replies, in Analog Audio there is little performance difference between the lower cost cables and the high-end cables.

However, One exception should be considered, the insulating material which surrounds the center (shielded) wire can measurably cause a small phase change/delay. This delay 'time-smears' the higher frequencies. PVC insulation has poor performance, Teflon insulation is far better performance. The result can be heard in many higher-end amplifiers. The PVC cable insulation is common. I suggest you look for the less common and slightly more costly cables using Teflon insulation for the core/center wire.
PVC has higher Dielectric Absorption than Teflon. The effect of Dielectric Absorption is a 'storage' event somewhat similar to a capacitor. When a signal changes amplitude, like from low to high, some of the electric charge is first, slightly resisted by the dielectric then the dielectric become fully or near-fully charged, followed by the signal going to a lower level and in-turn the charge in the dielectric goes down, at a slower rate than the main signal, while following the signal down. PVC's high dielectric, holds onto the charge longer than Teflon's, low dielectric. Arguments abound about this effect on Audio. However I have measured and had several auditions wherein the acoustic difference is both measured and heard, predominately from 8KHz and above, just by changing the cable insulation types. Personally, after first making bench measurements. I was pleasantly surprise to actually hear the difference. Even more so when 'the Golden Ears' of a major studio, for the first time, noticed his favorite CD had a Silver Bell playing in the mix. Personally it was so faint as to go unnoticed. Which, I suppose, is expected compared to having such excellent hearing as, 'Golden ears'.

For Audio, you find little benefit, sometimes none, to simply pay higher prices based on advertisements alone.

For Video, it becomes even more important to use Teflon, due to the higher frequencies. In the case of Analog Video the colors typically are richer as compared to the relative 'faded' color to be seen side-by-side in calibrated monitors.

Jaye
 
I've been told to be nicer to newbies but the above post is just a bunch of words nicely strung together.
 
Welcome to ASR!
The effect of Dielectric Absorption is a 'storage' event somewhat similar to a capacitor.
A cable is not "somewhat similar to capacitor", it is a capacitor... and a resistor, and in inductor.

The "delay" and phase impacts you are describing are a function of all cables and can easily be modelled. Changing the dielectric doesn't eliminate phase effects.

Have a dig around to understand the cable characteristics for normal lengths of interconnect, at normal voltages and with frequencies below 24kHz.
 
The result can be heard in many higher-end amplifiers.
To my knowledge this "smearing" (phase distortion) is measured in nanoseconds which would put it firmly out of reach for human ears. So I'm not sure it can be "heard" per se.

Welcome to ASR but if it wasn't heard in a blind test we can't really be sure if anything physical was heard.
 
However I have measured and had several auditions wherein the acoustic difference is both measured and heard,

But probably not heard in a proper blind ABX test. ;)

Or, capacitance CAN make a difference with a phono cartridge or a guitar pickup. Or maybe with long runs between buildings.

For Video, it becomes even more important to use Teflon, due to the higher frequencies.

With radio frequencies the cable characteristics are VERY important. 50 or 75-Ohm coax is neither capacitive or inductive at the operating frequencies. At audio frequencies there is some small capacitance per-foot, but the capacitive reactance is WAY higher than 50 or 75 Ohms and insignificant it when used at audio frequencies.
 
However, One exception should be considered, the insulating material which surrounds the center (shielded) wire can measurably cause a small phase change/delay. This delay 'time-smears' the higher frequencies.
That is lay intuition talking. Otherwise, please show high frequencies smeared as such. Remember, CD quality audio has incredibly low bandwidth of just 22.05 kHz. Nothing about that is "high frequency" in the context of electronics as even AM radio is at much higher frequency.
 
To my knowledge this "smearing" (phase distortion) is measured in nanoseconds which would put it firmly out of reach for human ears. So I'm not sure it can be "heard" per se.

Welcome to ASR but if it wasn't heard in a blind test we can't really be sure if anything physical was heard.
The period of the highest audible frequency is 50,000 nanoseconds. Hard to imagine how something measured in the single- or double-digits of nanoseconds can be perceptible, especially considering most sounds we actually like listening to have periods of 100,000 nanoseconds or more.
 
The period of the highest audible frequency is 50,000 nanoseconds. Hard to imagine how something measured in the single- or double-digits of nanoseconds can be perceptible, especially considering most sounds we actually like listening to have periods of 100,000 nanoseconds or more.
Yes, and I wanted to look for some sources to back up my recollection on this.


Turns out I was much too generous saying nanoseconds, in @DonH56 's simluation a few years ago, 10 feet of 12ga (nice and thick) cable produces a few picoseconds of group delay.

This kernel of truth is getting so small I think it might disappear the next time a bacterium sneezes.
 
Thanks all!

As shown, this forum already has plenty of existing threads on this topic. If the OP needs more guidance, are welcome to use the discussion feature to contact me directly.

Also, just pinned this one…

 
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