Tannoy Westminster Royal

[arisholm]

I'm surprised that the toe-in on those Tannoys is thought to be 'extreme'. I've always had my 'speakers turned to face the listening seat directly, as it's the on-axis response that's most flat. I've also tried the configuration attributed to Hugh Brittain whereby the axes of the loudspeakers cross some way in front of a central listener and serves to widen the 'sweet spot' for slightly off-centre listeners, but results in even more 'extreme' toe-in. As I mostly listen alone, I've gone back to the 'speakers on-axis, but don't understand why anyone would want to listen off-axis unless the 'speakers weren't flat on-axis, in which case, get better 'speakers!

S.

Yes it is not very clear from the pictures, angles etc are quite deceiving, but in fact the axes cross about 60cm in front of my nose
Within an area of +/- 60cm (or perhaps +/- 10-15 degrees) there is very little change in the tonality, but as you say it widens the sweetspot, which is good in particular when we are two people watching or listening to something.
And that amount of toe in reduces early side-wall reflections substantially. I think that enhances those qualities that live in the Westminsters; portraying artists and instruments well into the room in a very "physical" way, in lack of better words.

But sometimes, and in ego-mode, I move closer (and on axis) which widens the soundstage a bit and gives slightly better "pin-point" localisation of instruments. I even experimented a bit with digital acoustic crosstalk reduction filters to take that "3D" effect to the extreme. All fun, for different occasions.

 

[ernestcarl]

Yeah, it does not look too 'extreme'... If the side-walls are particularly close, toe-in can help avoid/minimize some of those reflections. It would be interesting to see what the HF is on-axis vs ~15-20 deg off-axis.

 

[arisholm]

Yeah, it does not look too 'extreme'... If the side-walls are particularly close, toe-in can help avoid/minimize some of those reflections. It would be interesting to see what the HF is on-axis vs ~15-20 deg off-axis.

OK, I tried that

Not very scientifically precise, so I may be off by a couple of degrees for each measurement, but this is at *roughly* 1m distance, with a calibrated mike aimed directly at the tweeter on-axis (0 deg), 15 deg, 30 deg and 42 deg (of course I was aiming for 15 degrees increments but I missed by a few degrees on the last one).

The orange curve (15 deg) is almost identical to 0 degrees, and corresponds to my usual position (15 deg off-axis, which is also the recommendation Tannoy makes for "extreme toe in"). So the axes cross in front of me by about 60cm from the MLP in this case.
Of course, even at 1m the room influences the measurements a bit, especially at lower frequencies. But this should give an indication.

As you can also see, the tweeter starts to roll off a bit from 15-16 kHz but that does not bother my 54yo ears to be honest But of course, if you are a bat or superman you can always buy their supertweeter which takes over from about 15k and up to 100kHz if memory serves me right.

And as I said before, after the use of DSP (Audiolense XO running as convolution filters in Roon) it becomes flat as the earth, except that the target follows the roll-off in the top! cheers

 

[watchnerd]

What's the deal with these, are they worth $50,000?
View attachment 99284

Yes they are.

If you live in a castle, nothing else will match the decor.

 

[oldsysop]

Are there any characteristics in which the Westminster Royal outperforms a Revel Salon 2 ?

 

[Feelas]

Are there any characteristics in which the Westminster Royal outperforms a Revel Salon 2 ?

The ridiculous looks, perhaps?

 

[watchnerd]

Are there any characteristics in which the Westminster Royal outperforms a Revel Salon 2 ?

Old money appeal.

 

[oivavoi]

Are there any characteristics in which the Westminster Royal outperforms a Revel Salon 2 ?

They are different animals? The Westminster Royal is very much a horn speaker. Heard it once in a hifi shop and really liked it, even though I'm not sure how I would have liked it long term. The Salon 2 (which I've never heard, but I've heard similar designs) has a waveguide for the tweeter, but it's shallow and discrete, and the mid- and bass-drivers are not horn-loaded. So these speakers have different directivities, and different ways of coupling the soundwaves to the air. They simply sound different from each other. My guess is that blind tests would show some people preferring one, some the other. It might very well be that more people would prefer the Salon 2, but this is really about different flavors of loudspeaker sound.

Personally I think it looks absolutely gorgeous.

 

[watchnerd]

They are different animals? The Westminster Royal is very much a horn speaker. Heard it once in a hifi shop and really liked it, even though I'm not sure how I would have liked it long term. The Salon 2 (which I've never heard, but I've heard similar designs) has a waveguide for the tweeter, but it's shallow and discrete, and the mid- and bass-drivers are not horn-loaded. So these speakers have different directivities, and different ways of coupling the soundwaves to the air. They simply sound different from each other. My guess is that blind tests would show some people preferring one, some the other. It might very well be that more people would prefer the Salon 2, but this is really about different flavors of loudspeaker sound.

Personally I think it looks absolutely gorgeous.

Agree.

Comparison to Salon 2 seems odd --- they're completely different beasts.

Comparison to Klipschorns might be slightly more apt.

I can't imagine anyone actually cross-shopping a Westminster and a Salon 2 unless they have no idea what they want in a speaker.

 

[watchnerd]

Are there any characteristics in which the Westminster Royal outperforms a Revel Salon 2 ?

Sensitivity, by a long shot.

Concentric driver.

 

[No one you know]

So it's basically a coax with 15 inch woofer and a 2 inch tweeter?
How does that justify a 50,000€ price?

No offense intended, but merely asking that question indicates no answer will justify it...and really that’s OK.

When these were still hand-built in Scotland the cabinet work was incredible. Heirloom furniture quality! (They even ship with a can of special wax to care for the veneer.) The cabinets are more complex internally than you would think & the dual concentric drivers are much harder to manufacture in small batches than a typical coax. I’ve heard them several times and with the right amplification (I always heard them with McIntosh tube) in the right room they are amazing. They are either your thing or not. I happen to really really like Tannoy and Klipsch horn loaded cabinets. I also really like their smaller cabinets and commercial install speakers. My desktop / office setup are Tannoy VXP6.

I’m not sure how to feel about Tannoy now that Behringer has closed the Scotland operation and moved things to China.

 

[Purité Audio]

Are there any characteristics in which the Westminster Royal outperforms a Revel Salon 2 ?

It is hugely more coloured.
If you enjoy ducks they could be your ideal loudspeaker .
Keith

 

[watchnerd]

All I hear in this thread is people who have not heard the speakers, except perhaps 30 years ago in a show or whatever, making silly judgements based on no evidence, probably because they cannot afford them and that makes them upset and angry.

ASR has many members who think anything that deviates from the consensus curve school of design is a bad speaker / snake oil / waste of money.

It's a rather constrained notion of what can sound enjoyable.

But, hey, I also listen to LPs and reel to reel alongside my digital, even though they measure bad and are colored, because I find them enjoyable. So I'm already a sinner.

 

[Katji]

Ahh, Mr. watchnerd... Again I think of the one horn fanatic I know. It's ok for me to say fanatic, because he built an extension to his house, with 2 curved inner walls becoming part of the horns. And he's like an encyclopedia of horn speaker knowledge, years of experience. So the horns are settled, sorted, he seems more concerned with cartridges now. And he's also...very into his reel-to-reels, got big Studers and so on there too. And also concerned with noise floor stuff.

 

[watchnerd]

Ahh, Mr. watchnerd... Again I think of the one horn fanatic I know. It's ok for me to say fanatic, because he built an extension to his house, with 2 curved inner walls becoming part of the horns. And he's like an encyclopedia of horn speaker knowledge, years of experience. So the horns are settled, sorted, he seems more concerned with cartridges now. And he's also...very into his reel-to-reels, got big Studers and so on there too. And also concerned with noise floor stuff.

That's pretty fanatical!

I've never owned what I would consider to be real horn speakers.

I don't think my audiophile journey will be complete until I do at some point.

 

[Katji]

It's not that measurements are ignored - you don't get crossovers sorted without measuring, and all those years of horn geometry development didn't happen in their heads.

It's "like a different world" - almost. Yesterday I re-read something he said about cables (because it was quoted) - with those horns... magnet wire...

 

[arisholm]

No offense intended, but merely asking that question indicates no answer will justify it...and really that’s OK.

When these were still hand-built in Scotland the cabinet work was incredible. Heirloom furniture quality! (They even ship with a can of special wax to care for the veneer.) The cabinets are more complex internally than you would think & the dual concentric drivers are much harder to manufacture in small batches than a typical coax. I’ve heard them several times and with the right amplification (I always heard them with McIntosh tube) in the right room they are amazing. They are either your thing or not. I happen to really really like Tannoy and Klipsch horn loaded cabinets. I also really like their smaller cabinets and commercial install speakers. My desktop / office setup are Tannoy VXP6.

I’m not sure how to feel about Tannoy now that Behringer has closed the Scotland operation and moved things to China.

Indeed. I think the Prestige series (incl. Westminster) is still made in Scotland. That would be a shame if they move it to China. For THAT low production volumes, I doubt they would consider moving it but who knows. At least mine were hand made in Scotland, and shipped directly to me, with a long list of people who have signed off on the cabinet, the driver, crossover, assembly, technical tests and packaging in a QA document placed in a box containing machined brass feet of very high quality, biwire jumpers, wax and a key for the front covers

 

[arisholm]

It is hugely more coloured.
If you enjoy ducks they could be your ideal loudspeaker .
Keith

I've enjoyed this thread. Appreciate that some actual user experience and subjective opinion could be posted without being totally killed ;-)
So a final and way too long response:

Perhaps Westminster are not the most neutral speakers I've had. In particular they do have some extra energy around the acoustic crossover of the front horn, at around 200-300Hz in my room, and the tweeter is not ruler flat at least not in my room, as you can see from the measurements I posted. Of course you can correct that with DSP if you like (Audiolense XO does that very well). AND, unless you have a large acoustically balanced and treated studio, most speakers need room correction anyways to get a reasonable in-room response.

Granted, my Adam Audio S5X main studio monitors would probably be the most neutral speakers I have, and more so than most "hifi" brands. And with the built-in 1250W of class D power they can play silly loud without audible dynamic compression or distortion. My previous Paradigm Persona 9H were also more neutral with really SOTA mid- and high resolution according to recent reviews, but to me they lacked that special something that I could fall in love with. BTW I measured my much cheaper Dali's outside and the response was ruler flat, group delay was fantastic, impulse response almost looked like it was from an amp not a speaker. Very impressive in fact for a 7K pair of speaker. But when you place them in an actual listening room, this perfection is messed up anyways, and a direct comparison with the Westminsters in the same room is just ... not even reasonable ;-)

So compared with these speakers, ranging from 7K-35K a pair and having more common bass reflex designs, the Westminsters are just a lot more fun and makes me want to listen to more music! And also they sound fabulous even at very low listening levels, not sure why that is so. Of course these are very subjective statement and I am not sure how that can be quantified.

I also agree with previous comments that it is not that relevant to try to compare the "quality" of Revel Salon 2 with Westminster since they are so different in almost every possible aspect (huge horn loaded front baffle vs slim speaker, concentric "point source" vs traditional elements, horn vs bass reflex). I have both style of speaker and for me there is no question what I enjoy the most.

But for the sake of more "objective" comparison:
Dynamic compression and distortion at realistic (reference level) SPLs are also a kind of "colouration" in my view.
A pair of free standing Salon 2 (86dB/1W/1m sensitivity) will require 2x600W RMS to produce 105dB peaks (THX reference leve) at a listening position 4 meters away. Add the usual 3 dB headroom (so 108dB) to be on the safe side to avoid clipping the amp, so 2x1200W required, that is, if they can handle it, I'm not even sure.. I don't think it is unreasonable to expect that high-end fullrange speakers can handle THX reference levels with ease in a typical listening room.

In comparison, a pair of Tannoys would need only 2x32W for the same SPL @4m, but then they still have 13dB headroom (118dB @4m) with a powerful amp like my ASR Emitter II ;-) At that stage, the Salon 2's would be melted on the floor, assuming you had the 2x12 000W required to reach those peaks. Of course I don't play at 118dB SPL in my MLP but it says a lot about the dynamic capabilities of horns vs more "common" designs.

cheers

 

[Pharos]

There is clearly still a following of Tannoys, on another forum, and there is a pronounced adherence by many to the 15"s, and in many cabinet variations, with discussion of tulip versus pepperpot waveguides.

It is easy to laugh at a love of this technology, but some of my greatest musical pleasure was from '72 to '85 using a pair of Gold Lancaster 15s, which only recently I discovered were actually at one time the reference monitor at Abbey Rd. I used only a 10+10 Nelson-Jones class A amp, and it was probably 103dB loud in those days of rock.

In '85 I bought a pair of ESS AMT 1aMs, and rebuilt them, and I remember on completion of the first listening to a late night R3 solo avant-guarde performance, and looking up at the ceiling in amazement wondering where the limits to the sound were. Compared with the Tannoys they were so much more revealing and open, and many friends were absolutely blown away by them, inviting everyone they knew to hear them.

I then lost my way and bought four pairs of ATCs, this written about on the ATC thread, then later returning to a pair of ESS AMT 1Bs which I completely rebuilt an redesigned. I have now moved on to ADAMs, but keeping the ESSs.

What seems to emerge is that despite our supposed love of, and adherence to objective measurement, ultimately our love of a subjective experience may well overrule that.

I've been looking at some of the earlier Tannoy horn designs, and the GRF and Autograph look to me better aesthetically than this model, and with a great potential given modern design approaches. I did hear an earlier incarnation of this at a show in the 90s, and to me it was coloured, as was my pair of Lancasters.

 

[arisholm]

Indeed. I think the Prestige series (incl. Westminster) is still made in Scotland. That would be a shame if they move it to China. For THAT low production volumes, I doubt they would consider moving it but who knows. At least mine were hand made in Scotland, and shipped directly to me, with a long list of people who have signed off on the cabinet, the driver, crossover, assembly, technical tests and packaging in a QA document placed in a box containing machined brass feet of very high quality, biwire jumpers, wax and a key for the front covers

As @TomK informed, I also just heard the sad news that Tannoy has stopped the production of the Prestige series in Scotland. Fortunately it will never be made in China either... So if you want to buy a new pair of ridiculous looking Westminsters for your castle to match your porcelain ducks and heirloom furniture you are out of luck I am happy to have purchased one of their very latest Westminsters, made the old fashion way. That is probably good news for me if I will ever sell them, although it is unlikely that I will ;-)

That said, the break-out company "Fyne" is still making high-end speakers with the same kind of driver, and in enclosures that may appeal better to most... Check this out @Pearljam5000, could be another discussion thread given your (very understandable) interest in point-source
https://www.fyneaudio.com/f1-series/
They have the same amazing imaging (I heard them, just sensational), but no horn-loading...