Swapping my tweeters - would this work?

[617]

Just use resistors and alligator clips.
If the Fs is similar and the nominal impedance is similar the tweeter should be sort of ok. It will sound slightly different but honestly above 5k is not about fidelity as much as quantity imo.

 

[anphex]

You guys are pure sugar. Thank you for all those insights and your patience.

 

[Sokel]

I would worry about matching with the (sort off) waveguide the old tweeter which was probably optimized for.
And I have a good reason to do so,I have seen such and attempt twice,the second time with the elipticors.

Both times measurements didn't show anything tragic but man,you couldn't listen to these things more than 5 minutes without getting this round headache that some speakers give you.
And it's not about level,the reason is probably well beyond my pay grade.

 

[617]

Your speakers are very interesting. 4 way with 3 midwoofers, two lower mids, two balanced mode radiators and a tweeter.

I would love to see measurements.

The BMR upper mids (the little flat things) are fairly inefficient but very wide dispersion units. Very unique drivers. There's a possibility they are actually dispersing wider than the tweeter at the crossover frequency.

If you simply want more/less treble I would highly recommend simply changing the crossover (or using eq) but it's fun o experiment. Don't expect any miracles from 10khz+ though. Your room eats those frequencies for breakfast so you'll only hear them if the speakers are pointed right at your head.

 

[anphex]

Your speakers are very interesting. 4 way with 3 midwoofers, two lower mids, two balanced mode radiators and a tweeter.

I would love to see measurements.

The BMR upper mids (the little flat things) are fairly inefficient but very wide dispersion units. Very unique drivers. There's a possibility they are actually dispersing wider than the tweeter at the crossover frequency.

If you simply want more/less treble I would highly recommend simply changing the crossover (or using eq) but it's fun o experiment. Don't expect any miracles from 10khz+ though. Your room eats those frequencies for breakfast so you'll only hear them if the speakers are pointed right at your head.

Yeah if shipping those back and forth to US wouldn't cost a kidney I had done so already. Probably with all my gear.

I really like those speakers but I kind of miss the AMT sound of my old Adam A8X sometimes, dunno how to describe it. That's where this whole idea stems from and I am just wanting a confirmation if I am right or wrong about the tweeter being the limiting factor.

And yes, can confirm, the sweet spot and room handling feels great on those speakers, probably due to the tripple dapollito.. My measurements are pretty flat except for notable "bathtub" FR design.

 

[617]

Do you do any equalization? I'd recommend a measurement mic and EQ before opening up your speakers.

Let us know how you like the results.

 

[anphex]

Small change of plans.
Since the 8 ohm variant of my tweeter confused the retailers (they were surprised to notice they have two variants of those) I got kind of worries myself. After reading a while I found out that Beryllium is pretty toxic and easy to break.

So I searched a while and found this guy with the so called TexTreme material which seems to be a Beryllium-Like fiber meta material.

https://doc.soundimports.nl/pdf/brands/SB%20Acoustics/TW29TXN-B-8/SATORI-TW29TXN-B-8.pdf

The data is almost the same, so I'm gonna try this out. This huge bump on axis above 20 khz seems to be due to the wavelenght becoming smaller than the tweeter. Also it's measured 32cm on axis, so I don't think it will translate 100 % into real life usage.

 

[JayGilb]

The data is almost the same, so I'm gonna try this out. This huge bump on axis above 20 khz seems to be due to the wavelenght becoming smaller than the tweeter. Also it's measured 32cm on axis, so I don't think it will translate 100 % into real life usage.

Only the neighborhood dogs will notice that 20khz bump.

 

[617]

Small change of plans.
Since the 8 ohm variant of my tweeter confused the retailers (they were surprised to notice they have two variants of those) I got kind of worries myself. After reading a while I found out that Beryllium is pretty toxic and easy to break.

So I searched a while and found this guy with the so called TexTreme material which seems to be a Beryllium-Like fiber meta material.

https://doc.soundimports.nl/pdf/brands/SB%20Acoustics/TW29TXN-B-8/SATORI-TW29TXN-B-8.pdf

The data is almost the same, so I'm gonna try this out. This huge bump on axis above 20 khz seems to be due to the wavelenght becoming smaller than the tweeter. Also it's measured 32cm on axis, so I don't think it will translate 100 % into real life usage.

If you're looking for exotic tweeters with crazy HF extension there are a lot of good options. No need to be limited to SB Acoustics although they make some good ones.

 

[anphex]

Only the neighborhood dogs will notice that 20khz bump.

It's tested with a frequency that won't ever reach my speakers, so I don't care about anything above 20 Khz. It just shows that it's "the little tweeter that could".
The rolloff on- and off axis up until 20Khz looks pretty nice though. It's left to see how my baffle step adds to this.

If you're looking for exotic tweeters with crazy HF extension there are a lot of good options. No need to be limited to SB Acoustics although they make some good ones.

I somehow got dragged into their rabbit whole because they have so many variants and most of them fit nicely considering the data. Also the casing is almost similar to my current tweeters.
But if you have any recommendations I am all ears!

 

[levimax]

This huge bump on axis above 20 khz seems to be due to the wavelenght becoming smaller than the tweeter. Also it's measured 32cm on axis, so I don't think it will translate 100 % into real life usage.

To me the "bump" above 20 Khz looks like "cone breakup". You won't hear it (unless you are a bat) but it is strong enough that IM products might show up back in the audible range. Since you are now becoming a speaker designer you may want to consider how to prevent that. Solutions range from damping to notch filters to a tweeter that doesn't behave like this.... this issue is one reason why soft dome tweeters and so popular and forgiving.

 

[TimW]

To me the "bump" above 20 Khz looks like "cone breakup". You won't hear it (unless you are a bat) but it is strong enough that IM products might show up back in the audible range. Since you are now becoming a speaker designer you may want to consider how to prevent that. Solutions range from damping to notch filters to a tweeter that doesn't behave like this.... this issue is one reason why soft dome tweeters and so popular and forgiving.

To add to this, one of the reasons Beryllium is desirable as a tweeter material is because it pushes that breakup resonance to a much higher frequency. This results in a lesser chance of that resonance being excited and therefore less chance of IM products in the audible range.

 

[Sokel]

You can also ask the manufacturer of your speakers for a possible upgrade and the crossover that comes with this.
I'm sure that in the process of designing them they ruled out a lot of of tweeters,hopefully (for you) some of them due to high cost.
They maybe respond.

 

[anphex]

To me the "bump" above 20 Khz looks like "cone breakup". You won't hear it (unless you are a bat) but it is strong enough that IM products might show up back in the audible range. Since you are now becoming a speaker designer you may want to consider how to prevent that. Solutions range from damping to notch filters to a tweeter that doesn't behave like this.... this issue is one reason why soft dome tweeters and so popular and forgiving.

My thoughts are:
a) Everything above 20 Khz is just showing a range that the tweeter is capable of while these are frequencies that would never be actually available in a healthy and well filtered DAC output.
b) The way TexTreme handles it as quoted by a reviewer that uses the measurement approach for his reviews:
"By optimizing the fiber architecture, the symmetric breakup modes are replaced with more but smaller and local breakup modes. This creates a distributed breakup with smaller peaks in the frequency response and ultimately a smoother and more natural sound without harshness."
Link to review: https://audioxpress.com/article/tes...satori-tw29txn-b-4-textreme-diaphragm-tweeter
c) The silk soft dome tweater in my understanding swallows those modes due to its soft material naturally but at the cost of extended range. And maybe something else?

To add to this, one of the reasons Beryllium is desirable as a tweeter material is because it pushes that breakup resonance to a much higher frequency. This results in a lesser chance of that resonance being excited and therefore less chance of IM products in the audible range.

The data and FR of the SB Beryllium tweeter look almost the same though. The both go a little crazy above 20 Khz.

You can also ask the manufacturer of your speakers for a possible upgrade and the crossover that comes with this.
I'm sure that in the process of designing them they ruled out a lot of of tweeters,hopefully (for you) some of them due to high cost.
They maybe respond.

I already opened a can of worms asking there in the community forum while some people came around and asked me to try it and report back, so I am doing this under the radar for now.

 

[617]

D3004/6640-00 1" Tweeter Beryllium Dome is one option. It's one of the most expensive tweeters out there but the dome is behind a grill so you don't get hurt by it. That's from ScanSpeak.

You should look at the different ring radiators from Scanspeak and SB Acoustics, they tend to have very good HF dispersion.

One moment, please...

Transducer labs is a small manufacture in the Western USA that makes very nice tweeters, some out of hard materials.

Accuton is another option but they won't fit your cabinet without modification.

Look up Bliesma as well.

There's also ribbons and planars.

 

[Dave Bullet]

If you're going to get the best out of the new tweeter, FR measurement is a must.

The cheap option is a single channel measurement system - simply a laptop/PC with line out to your amplifier of choice and a MiniDSP UMIK-1 (USB) for measurement with Room EQ wizard software (Linux/Mac/Windows).

You can get away by loading manufacturer impedance curves of the tweeter. A DATSv3 or REW impedance measuring jig is not required.

I'd start by measuring FR and being able to match in simulation your CURRENT speaker.

If you can do that, you will have a far better chance of accurately designing the required tweeter and likely midrange crossover changes to get an optimised response and the most out of your tweeter upgrade.

I think you will see an L-Pad or inline series resistor only change won't cut it. Midrange crossover tweaks are possible and will be evident.

 

[anphex]

Hey guys, so here's the follow up.

The new tweeters arrived and were pretty easy to replace if you ignore that the socket was too big for the SB Acoustics SATORI tweeters. I could fix them with on screw and some makeshift alignment so they almost perfectly pointed to the front for a listening test and measurement.

The 30cm on axis measurement images is attached. You can see that the ScanSpeak 2608 has a moderate boost between 7 Khz and 20khz before falling off cleanly in my setup. The Satori TexTreme Tweeter is kind of linear in this range. Funnily I didn't even have to use the resistors I ordered. The specs matched so well that I didn't even have to use a resistor. I could have for fine tuning, but in the end I settled for sticking to the factory ScanSpeak tweeter since it's actually really nice and the improvement didn't justify the money and the hassle.

I thought by buying a super high end tweeter it would add some more impulse, clarity and just magic to the sound, but nope.
The difference was actually pretty unnoticable. The only difference was that the the SATORI was overall a bit brighter in the highs but actually sounding a little "dull" because I was used to high fr end boost the Scan Speak 2608.

So moral of the story: When there is no real, measurable and reasonable reason to "fix" something on your speakers, don't waste your time and money. And if there is, maybe just think about getting better speakers right away instead of tinkering around.

 

[mhardy6647]

You could get a L-pad and then tune the speaker with it and then measure the resistance values of the adjusted L-pad and then buy resistors to suit.

That's how the cool kids do it.

 

[Capitol C]

Replacing a driver is a complicated process for an expert. Take a look at what the did to find a replacement for the old (no longer obtainable) AR-3A tweeters at Classic Speaker Pages before you spend any money or time on this: https://www.classicspeakerpages.net...ing_the_ar-3a/restoring_the_ar-3a_full_pd.pdf