Subwoofers make all big speakers obsolete?

[crazycloud]

In truth I am waiting for Amir to do so! I trust his wisdom and the high quality of his measurements. So far, every time I purchased a golfing panther item, I have been very satisfied!

The data bass measurements are very good. I'm not sure what extra you're going to get from another set if the subs you're interested in have already been done.

 

[AndreaT]

Measuring outside shows the base performance of the sub. Everyone's room and positioning within it will affect response differently.
How else do you envision measuring subs?

Also, neither Stereophile nor The Absolute Sound, with their emphasis on superlatives, offered reviews objective enough to guide a sensible choice. The few I have heard in Hi-Fi stores were damaging the listening experience, poorly integrated, excessive in their contribution and interfering with the intelligibility of the Music.

 

[AndreaT]

The data bass measurements are very good. I'm not sure what extra you're going to get from another set if the subs you're interested in have already been done.

Of which SW? By whom? How trustworthy in your opinion? I am happy to get a link you trust!

 

[sarumbear]

Great subs and great integration certainly made towers unnecessary in my situation, but as I always say, if I suddenly came into a room 3x larger, I would not hesitate to look at towers to fill the greater distances involved.

I rather trust the speaker manufacturer to evaluate the final set-up and buy a full-range speaker, besides two full range speakers take much less space than a bookshelf on stands plus two subs.

Right. Subs actually determine what kind of speakers you should have.

Very true and very bad. As I have to chose what is going to emit the 9 octaves just because I want to add the 9th octave with a sub. The 8th octave that has almost no output in most music.

In my experience, because you want to cross within the range of non-localizability, so that the sub is knocked down before it starts making unpleasant sounds (actually content from the main channels coming through), that puts you between 60-80 Hz with a typical LR4 crossover. And because of that, it informs what your speakers need to be capable of. I think 6.5" drivers are the minimum, but one could get away with some designs using 5.25" bookshelves crossed at 80 Hz and not played overly loud.

Some companies/people get this all wrong and pair 4" speakers with a sub crossed at 120-150 Hz. That is not going to be a recipe for the best sound. The best you can do there is to put the sub literally next to the center channel (if you have one), where it will be less noticeable. Even though that does tend to be a good location, it means such a setup can't experiment with other sub locations to find what works best.

My main issue is you should not just add a sub to a system without an active crossover in place -- full-stop. You will extend the bass frequencies and you will prove that with REW charts but you are increasing distortion as the main speakers are not low passed and hence are working loose, creating distortion. There is no escape from that fact. If you understand how an electromagnetic speaker works you will now this to be the case.

The reason active Genelecs integrate well with their subwoofers is because they have active filters already built-in.

 

[crazycloud]

Also, neither Stereophile nor The Absolute Sound, with their emphasis on superlatives, offered reviews objective enough to guide a sensible choice. The few I have heard in Hi-Fi stores were damaging the listening experience, poorly integrated, excessive in their contribution and interfering with the intelligibility of the Music.

I fail to see how that relates at all. I read them for entertainment, not data.
Subs are simple air pumps and not difficult to measure. The problem most people have with adding them to systems is they have neither the measuring gear, nor the knowledge to integrate them properly. For example, not adding a suitable high pass to the mains which is necessary in almost all cases.

 

[crazycloud]

I am happy to get a link you trust!

www.data-bass.com plenty to look at there, although I think Josh has gotten tired of it.

I design and build my own, so I'm not really interested in commercial units as they're poor value.

 

[sarumbear]

The problem most people have with adding them to systems is they have neither the measuring gear, nor the knowledge to integrate them properly. For example, not adding a suitable high pass to the mains which is necessary in almost all cases.

You hit the nail on the head. However, what options the people have for a "suitable high pass to the mains" on the market?

 

[Sokel]

Here's what Genelec recommends for given room volume,listening distance and desired SPL BEFORE adding subs.
I think they know better (note that the volume is in cubic meters)

(from the other ongoing thread):

Working from the speakers backwards

… Those of us who have tried to answer your question seem mostly to think that the F208s, some subs, and maybe some EQ will serve you very well. … The rest think that actives are a potential solution…. and a listen is worthwhile.

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[sarumbear]

Here's what Genelec recommends for given room volume,listening distance and desired SPL BEFORE adding subs.
I think they know better (note that the volume is in cubic meters)

(from the other ongoing thread):

Working from the speakers backwards

… Those of us who have tried to answer your question seem mostly to think that the F208s, some subs, and maybe some EQ will serve you very well. … The rest think that actives are a potential solution…. and a listen is worthwhile.

www.audiosciencereview.com

That Genelec chart is concerned about the overall sound level in a room, not necessarily about extending the frequency range.

 

[Sokel]

That Genelec chart is concerned about the overall sound level in a room, not necessarily about extending the frequency range.

Yes but is probably measured and tested for the rest of the FR (>20-30Hz) that a sub is intended for.
Physical size,size of drivers,etc of the reccomended (that are crossed in the 200-300-400Hz region) is a good index for the most suffered area of mains-sub combination - the mid-bass.

 

[sarumbear]

Yes but is probably measured and tested for the rest of the FR (>20-30Hz) that a sub is intended for.

Do you think any of these speaker will generate the bottom octave at any distance/room size?

 

[Sokel]

Do you think any of these speaker will generate the bottom octave at any distance/room size?

In a 4X5 meters room and at a listening distance of 1.5 meters to get 98dbSPL(that's peak,92dbSPL continuous) as they recommend?
I really don't know,never tried it,I think they would be enough for me the same way my fostex's are enough for me for my desktop use.

 

[Willem]

I fail to see how that relates at all. I read them for entertainment, not data.
Subs are simple air pumps and not difficult to measure. The problem most people have with adding them to systems is they have neither the measuring gear, nor the knowledge to integrate them properly. For example, not adding a suitable high pass to the mains which is necessary in almost all cases.

The market could really do with a decent external line level high pass filter. Pro Audio power amps often have them built in, but consumer gear rarely.

 

[sarumbear]

In a 4X5 meters room and at a listening distance of 1.5 meters to get 98dbSPL(that's peak,92dbSPL continuous) as they recommend?
I really don't know,never tried it,I think they would be enough for me the same way my fostex's are enough for me for my desktop use.

As the topic is about subwoofers the relevance of such a chart is whether the speakers produce enough SPL in the the bottom octave. From @amirm's tests they do not, hence that chart is not relevant to the subject.

 

[Sokel]

in the the bottom octave.

That's 22-40Hz roughly.Your examples dictate an integration up to 70-80Hz (that depending the filter will go even beyond).
Is that their intended use?
For all I know subs are for adding range,not SPL and we ask for range AND SPL up there.
It's a sincere question.

 

[sarumbear]

That's 22-40Hz roughly.Your examples dictate an integration up to 70-80Hz (that depending the filter will go even beyond).
Is that their intended use?
For all I know subs are for adding range,not SPL and we ask for range AND SPL up there.
It's a sincere question.

You answered the question. Subwoofers add range, frequency range. The chart is about SPL, hence not related to the issues on this thread.

 

[Chromatischism]

I rather trust the speaker manufacturer to evaluate the final set-up and buy a full-range speaker, besides two full range speakers take much less space than a bookshelf on stands plus two subs.

This is a nonsequitur because they do not do the same thing; it's an apples and oranges comparison since the potential of the sub system is greater. True full-range speakers also cost more so it's not an even economic comparison, either.

Very true and very bad. As I have to chose what is going to emit the 9 octaves just because I want to add the 9th octave with a sub. The 8th octave that has almost no output in most music.

Another nonsequitur - we're not talking about 9 octaves. Just the bass hand-off so you can get a good crossover.

My main issue is you should not just add a sub to a system without an active crossover in place -- full-stop. You will extend the bass frequencies and you will prove that with REW charts but you are increasing distortion as the main speakers are not low passed and hence are working loose, creating distortion. There is no escape from that fact. If you understand how an electromagnetic speaker works you will now this to be the case.

I always work with an AVR and advocate for crossovers.

 

[Chromatischism]

For all I know subs are for adding range,not SPL and we ask for range AND SPL up there.

They are most definitely used for SPL output at the lower ranges. Think: by increasing SPL down low, you are adding "range" as you call it.

 

[sarumbear]

This is a nonsequitur because they do not do the same thing;

One of us (and the dictionary) doesn’t know the meaning of non sequitur. Title is about the size of speakers. The area taken by speakers defines how big a speaker is, hence directly related to the thread.

it's an apples and oranges comparison since the potential of the sub system is greater.

That is your assumption. There’s nothing technically stopping a full range speaker produce same amount of sub-bass as a subwoofer. My Salon2 pair will beat many subwoofers in the bottom octave for instance. A subwoofer is an extra woofer in a separate enclosure. That’s all.

 

[Matias]

The market could really do with a decent external line level high pass filter. Pro Audio power amps often have them built in, but consumer gear rarely.

In XLR form there is only Shure A15HP with "12 dB per octave below 100 Hz" for about 100 usd a pair.

Shure In-Line Hi-Pass Filter

Buy Shure In-Line Hi-Pass Filter featuring Rolls Off Low-Audio Frequencies, Reduces 60 Hz Electrical Hum. Review Shure null

www.bhphotovideo.com