Subwoofers make all big speakers obsolete?

[AndreaT]

Not better made than others particularly. My DIY subs probably do better in that respect. Never been impressed by their performance in any case, let alone their relatively high expense for the performance (at least in the US). Just not one of the better choices IMO.

Well, it is always possible to find better choices. However, they do recreate the sound I hear at Symphony Hall reasonably well. I guess it also depends on positioning them right (one sub takes ten hours, two subs one hundred, three…too complex). The double bass and organ at the opening of “Sonnenaufgang” of Also Sprach Zarathustra in a good recording is reproduced fine (31.5 Hz) in my listening room. Measuring a sub in a review is mostly academic, as they interact significantly with your room acoustic. Luckily, the open room has open extensions in the rest of the house longer than a 20 Hz wavelength (17 m). I think this matters, a lot.
If you suggest I should further improve and upgrade my Strata III you are probably right…what do you suggest and what is your reference music for testing subs?

 

[Chrispy]

Great subs and great integration certainly made towers unnecessary in my situation, but as I always say, if I suddenly came into a room 3x larger, I would not hesitate to look at towers to fill the greater distances involved.


Right. Subs actually determine what kind of speakers you should have. In my experience, because you want to cross within the range of non-localizability, so that the sub is knocked down before it starts making unpleasant sounds (actually content from the main channels coming through), that puts you between 60-80 Hz with a typical LR4 crossover. And because of that, it informs what your speakers need to be capable of. I think 6.5" drivers are the minimum, but one could get away with some designs using 5.25" bookshelves crossed at 80 Hz and not played overly loud.

Some companies/people get this all wrong and pair 4" speakers with a sub crossed at 120-150 Hz. That is not going to be a recipe for the best sound. The best you can do there is to put the sub literally next to the center channel (if you have one), where it will be less noticeable. Even though that does tend to be a good location, it means such a setup can't experiment with other sub locations to find what works best.

In larger rooms I think larger mains do have an advantage over bookshelves, subs or no....larger drivers in larger rooms did make a difference in upper bass ranges particularly, i.e. beyond the sub range in my use. In a smaller room less important.

 

[Chrispy]

Well, it is always possible to find better choices. However, they do recreate the sound I hear at Symphony Hall reasonably well. I guess it also depends on positioning them right (one sub takes ten hours, two subs one hundred, three…too complex). The double bass and organ at the opening of “Sonnenaufgang” of Also Sprach Zarathustra in a good recording is reproduced fine (31.5 Hz) in my listening room. Measuring a sub in a review is mostly academic, as they interact significantly with your room acoustic. Luckily, the open room has open extensions in the rest of the house longer than a 20 Hz wavelength (17 m). I think this matters, a lot.
If you suggest I should further improve and upgrade my Strata III you are probably right…what do you suggest and what is your reference music for testing subs?

I don't use particular music at all to setup subs. The room size thing is more audiophilia than anything solid. Room modes are real, and multiple subs can deal with that as well as a good setup for dsp utilization. Rel just never appealed particularly here in the US where we have much better options.

 

[Chrispy]

FWIW in europe seems BK Elec and XTZ and Arendal might be good ways to go for subs, and even some SVS and Monolith and some others now. DIY with good drivers and building skills ca still be better IMO....Stereo Integrity and Funk have some exceptionally good drivers.

 

[AndreaT]

I don't use particular music at all to setup subs. The room size thing is more audiophilia than anything solid. Room modes are real, and multiple subs can deal with that as well as a good setup for dsp utilization. Rel just never appealed particularly here in the US where we have much better options.

Well, in my experience and without dsp, the size of the room and its open extensions matters a lot. Any smallish room does not allow the same bass clarity and articulation as it has a tendency to muddle the sound by creating more peaks and valleys in the fr. I think there is acoustic theory backing this up. I had a box (dspeaker or something like that), with a calibration mic, that was supposed to cut the peaks but not amplify the drops. Results were modest at best.

 

[Chrispy]

Well, in my experience and without dsp, the size of the room and its open extensions matters a lot. Any smallish room does not allow the same bass clarity and articulation as it has a tendency to muddle the sound by creating more peaks and valleys in the fr. I think there is acoustic theory backing this up. I had a box (dspeaker or something like that), with a calibration mic, that was supposed to cut the peaks but not amplify the drops. Results were modest at best.

Bass clarity and articulation are somewhat weird terms as they are more subjective....I really am not sure what you mean by those. The time I did demo Rel subs thought they were very limited in capabiility compared to what I already had, but at much higher cost. Rel just seems very overpriced for their limited performance. What integration tools you had aren't particularly clear, altho your experience with the DSpeaker thing (Audyssey based if IIRC) isn't all that informative.

 

[Chromatischism]

Bass clarity and articulation are somewhat weird terms as they are more subjective

They certainly come from a flat response, that is, one without peaks and dips. This allows us to hear all the details without masking. Some people think they have a good sub response, but it's really just mediocre.

 

[AndreaT]

Bass clarity and articulation are somewhat weird terms as they are more subjective....I really am not sure what you mean by those. The time I did demo Rel subs thought they were very limited in capabiility compared to what I already had, but at much higher cost. Rel just seems very overpriced for their limited performance. What integration tools you had aren't particularly clear, altho your experience with the DSpeaker thing (Audyssey based if IIRC) isn't all that informative.

It’s ok. The ability to hear the bass melody line and each of the different instruments playing bass notes. It seems to me I have explained enough and it is now time for me to go back to listening to Music.

 

[AndreaT]

They certainly come from a flat response, that is, one without peaks and dips. This allows us to hear all the details without masking. Some people think they have a good sub response, but it's really just mediocre.

Bass clarity and articulation are somewhat weird terms as they are more subjective....I really am not sure what you mean by those. The time I did demo Rel subs thought they were very limited in capabiility compared to what I already had, but at much higher cost. Rel just seems very overpriced for their limited performance. What integration tools you had aren't particularly clear, altho your experience with the DSpeaker thing (Audyssey based if IIRC) isn't all that informative.

It was similar to this: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...anti-mode-2-0-dual-core-room-eq-review.15624/

 

[Chrispy]

It’s ok. The ability to hear the bass melody line and each of the different instruments playing bass notes. It seems to me I have explained enough and it is now time for me to go back to listening to Music.

Still sounds like an integration problem if that's an issue. Good luck. You probably haven't delved into it as much as you should perhaps, but that's a personal choice. Good luck!

 

[Chrispy]

They certainly come from a flat response, that is, one without peaks and dips. This allows us to hear all the details without masking. Some people think they have a good sub response, but it's really just mediocre.

So that's by measurement or by "ear"? This with single vs multiple subs?

 

[Chromatischism]

So that's by measurement or by "ear"? This with single vs multiple subs?

By measurement. It's of course a lot easier to achieve with multiple. But it's well known that uneven bass response sounds less articulate and less detailed.

 

[Chrispy]

By measurement. It's of course a lot easier to achieve with multiple. But it's well known that uneven bass response sounds less articulate and less detailed.

So just single sub instance is the point? I'd think that's not just a bass response issue, tho. I just can't imagine single subs for the most part, let alone anything from Rel.

 

[Chromatischism]

I'd say if you get a flat sub response from a single sub, you got really lucky.

 

[crazycloud]

Measuring a sub in a review is mostly academic, as they interact significantly with your room acoustic.

Do it outside. See www.data-bass.com

 

[dasdoing]

here is your tipical 5" bookshelf distorsion.
to really avoid that rise at 96dB it would need to be crossed at 150Hz or so.

 

[AndreaT]

Still sounds like an integration problem if that's an issue. Good luck. You probably haven't delved into it as much as you should perhaps, but that's a personal choice. Good luck!

Do it outside. See www.data-bass.com

Yes, outside. However, then it plays inside. Sure, a well behaved outside is probably a better behaved inside…

 

[crazycloud]

Yes, outside. However, then it plays inside. Sure, a well behaved outside is probably a better behaved inside…

Measuring outside shows the base performance of the sub. Everyone's room and positioning within it will affect response differently.
How else do you envision measuring subs?

 

[AndreaT]

Still sounds like an integration problem if that's an issue. Good luck. You probably haven't delved into it as much as you should perhaps, but that's a personal choice. Good luck!

Your reply seems slightly arrogant. I should “delve into” as much as I wish to. I asked you about your subwoofers of choice, after describing my modest ones, and I get a pseudo-lecture about my allegedly poor choice. I indicated the advantages of RELs (easy integration by wiring in series to the existing speakers, a very useful option as my DACs do not have a SW out, reliability, as my modest Strata III played for 23+ years), I succinctly described why they seem satisfactory (playing the opening double bass/organ of “Sonnengaufgang” as I remember it from Symphony Hall or close enough). You did not engage in a meaningful discussion and did not offer useful information. I do not find the interaction either useful or pleasant. Yes, there is so much I must still learn. No, I am not a newbie in Music listening.

 

[AndreaT]

Measuring outside shows the base performance of the sub. Everyone's room and positioning within it will affect response differently.
How else do you envision measuring subs?

In truth I am waiting for Amir to do so! I trust his wisdom and the high quality of his measurements. So far, every time I purchased a golfing panther item, I have been very satisfied!