Subjectivist’s rant debunked

[kemmler3D]

You would be good and honest and clearly extremely knowedgable. You'd probably be the best at it, but connections matter. That's why I am still working in Silcion Valley. I get used by the connected people, but at least they trust me to be loyal and throw crumbs from their big wins my way. Hare vs Turtle race, I hope. :-D

Thanks for saying so. Connections are the most important thing if you want to build a client business. Referrals a close second. A friend of mine does interior design work for probably the same sort of people we are talking about... I wonder if they have a "stereo guy" in the mix yet...

 

[pablolie]

.. In contrast, let's say ten different people buy a speaker that is neutral, has fairly low distortion and reasonable dispersion. Once they EQ the speaker...

I agree with your premise, but I'd venture that is an unrealistic ask -unfortunately as it may be- for the vast majority of audio buyers.

 

[moonlight rainbow dream]

Spoiler: [...]

When John Devore posted this rant I knew it would find it's way here at some point

For the record, I understand the eye-rolling many have over lots of what John said. I share that, and also certainly agree with Amir's points that he posted under the video
on youtube.

As for comments like this...


I hope you are not implying that anyone who likes, or buys, a Devore speaker is just some cultish dupe.

As I've mentioned before: I'm an example of an ASR member who doesn't believe in technically implausible snake oil claims, and during a very large speaker search, in which I demoed with my test tracks many well known speaker brands (including Revel, Paradigm, Focal, Kii Audio, Magico, ...you name it), I found Devore's O/96 speakers to stand out with characteristics that I found extremely compelling. They became one of my favourite speakers.

And, in experience discussing the brand with many other audiohiles, I don't see lots of the as cultish dupes either, but rather they ended up with Devore speakers after winnowing them out from hearing many other contenders. The speaker gave them the presentation that they like. Nothing cultish about that.




Devore uses lots of measurements, as well as loudspeaker design theory, in his designs. However, as I understand him, ultimately if he hits a point where the design choice is between "measures more textbook" vs "the sound I'm actually going for" he will choose the latter. Nothing wrong with that, IMO.

Basically he's designing for a certain type of presentation he likes, and if there was enough people who shared the same goals/taste, then there was an audience/market for his speakers. Turned out that, yes, plenty of audiophiles were looking for a presentation just like John enjoyed, hence the O/96 became by far his best selling speaker. To the degree that I think it helped play a part in the return of wider baffle speakers in to vogue.

It's been my experience that, while certainly a high degree of authentic technical knowledge will help a designer reliably reach his goal, which could include making speakers as neutral as possible, people who have some relevant technical chops, but mixed with some other dubious beliefs, can still end up with a nice sounding product. This was one of my take-aways when reviewing, long ago, the Shun Mook Bella Voce speakers. The Shun Mook guys were notorious for their speaker tuning "mpingo disc" nonsense. And yet, they managed to build a speaker what was one of the most beautiful sounding speakers I'd heard. Even THOUGH it incorporated some of the ideas that may have been nonsense (I think there were mpingo discs inside the cabinet), I think they were nonetheless good enough listeners and had just enough knowledge to actually build a good sounding speaker.

I think John Devore likely knows even more about speaker design than the Shun Mook crew, but even if some of his ideas are unorthodox or even wrong, in the end, he seems to achieve a certain sound that he's going for, and which many audiophiles have found compelling.

I think if the O/96 were put on the Klippel, it'd be very easy to see what their strengths were and what people find enjoyable about them. There's really no need to maintain this sense or perception that he is bringing some kind of subjective secret sauce to the table.

 

[MattHooper]

I think if the O/96 were put on the Klippel, it'd be very easy to see what their strengths were and what people find enjoyable about them. There's really no need to maintain this sense or perception that he is bringing some kind of subjective secret sauce to the table.

Yes it would reveal their sonic profile. But whether it would be easy to see what people find enjoyable about them, that's another thing.
Some people, yes. Others have a more strict criteria on "good and bad" speakers and would just write them off as 'bad sounding speakers.' Even when the O/96 stereophile review was put online, there were (objective-based) commentators railing against Stereophile for ever daring to recommend speakers that were such an incompetent train-wreck of a design.

 

[pablolie]

I'm not so sure.

I think for the people that we label as "enthusiasts", it may be eagerly accepted.
I think for the "man-on-the-street" types, trickle-down technology will soon make it commonplace. I hope so, anyway.
For the subjectivist "audiophile", I doubt there will ever be any degree of acceptance.

But my main point is that buying genre-specific speakers is fraught with problems, some of which are insurmountable. Those problems either disappear or are greatly reduced by competent, neutral designs.

And who know? Perhaps a listener who is addicted to a genre-specific sound will listen to a neutral speaker and think, "Hey! I like that!" and we have a convert to neutrality.

It could happen.

Jim

I know I did... before speaker measurements were common. The brand was long forgotten Ceeroy in Germany, who were long known for great car systems but went for home audio and were promptly acquired by Jamo (still around and well regarded). Ceeroy also offered an upgrade program in collaboration with a well regarded university.

They marketed rationally, published specs and charts every speaker.

 

[MattHooper]

I think the big problem with Devore is not that his speakers are coloured in sound (in a way that i thnk is wrong, but that aside), but that he is dishonest about that.

In what way do you find him dishonest about that?

The first thing is, in terms of "honesty," I don't think he actually believes they are as colored as you do. Though he readily admits when he's made "non-textbook" choices
here or there, some of which have trade offs, but which he finds to sound better.

What I've gleaned, from a number of interviews and his youtube videos, is that his approach is a measurements + subjective approach, where he starts with certain objectives in terms of measurements, that get him toward his design goal, and then he tweaks based on his subjective impressions. The idea, as I understand it, is to remove the sense of colorations in the sense of having the impression of the mechanical nature of the sound removed, so instruments sound more life-like. So a specific design choice may not be what Revel would be going for, but to John's ears will sound "more lifelike" and in that sense "uncolored." So he's not just going for some wonky coloration as a goal in itself. (And the 0/96 actually measured relatively flat on axis, vs many other much more zig zaggy high end speakers).

 

[Sal1950]

And who know? Perhaps a listener who is addicted to a genre-specific sound will listen to a neutral speaker and think, "Hey! I like that!" and we have a convert to neutrality.

It could happen.

From your lips to Gods ear Jim.

 

[nerdemoji]

DeVore Fidelity Orangutan O/96 loudspeaker Measurements

Sidebar 3: Measurements I used DRA Labs' MLSSA system and a calibrated DPA 4006 microphone to measure the DeVore Fidelity Orangutan O/96's frequency response in the farfield, and an Earthworks QTC-40 for the nearfield and spatially averaged room responses.

www.stereophile.com

The discussion section at the bottom is hysterical

 

[kemmler3D]

(And the 0/96 actually measured relatively flat on axis, vs many other much more zig zaggy high end speakers).

In the sterophile review they actually say it's the average of 30 degrees, not a normal on-axis measurement. I suppose that would tend to even out the response a bit. Even so, there are some funky discontinuities, the >5dB swing betwen 1-2khz is concerning, and the resonances are simply the worst I've ever seen in one of their reviews.

 

[MattHooper]

But your personal tastes are not for a highly accurate speaker going by what I know you to use.

Well, I guess it depends on what bar you are holding for "highly accurate." I don't think my Joseph or Thiel 2.7 speakers are terribly innacurate. A little goose here or there perhaps, but pretty good otherwise.

Further, I don't have just one taste, I enjoy different sounding speakers. One of my favourites were the Waveform Mach Solo speakers I had in my home for a while, which measured incredibly neutral with great off axis performance (they were measured in the NRC).

I'm not hunting for coloration per se. But if a non-neutral speaker does something cool, I'm open for that.

So we always fall back to the same ole. same ole.
You either build your system to accurately reflect whats on the source as best as possible.
Or you build it to personal tastes.
DeVore has spent a ton of time and energy into voicing these speakers way outside the norm of "excellent engineering practice".
Read John Atkinson's measurement comments which although he is waay too kind in his "voicing (LOL)" none the less reveals some
of the ways things are off-kilter.

DeVore Fidelity Orangutan O/96 loudspeaker Measurements

Sidebar 3: Measurements I used DRA Labs' MLSSA system and a calibrated DPA 4006 microphone to measure the DeVore Fidelity Orangutan O/96's frequency response in the farfield, and an Earthworks QTC-40 for the nearfield and spatially averaged room responses.

www.stereophile.com

I disagree with your characterization. I think John was honestly reporting his impressions - that some of the issues he found in the measurements were not as obtrusive as he was expecting. Amir has said similar things about some speakers here. It's not like that doesn't happen.

My impressions agreed with the reviewer, and with JA. I did hear a little funkiness *just occasionally* in the same region reported by JA. But on the vast majority of contentI played I found it invisible. Same with the bass, which occasionally could be "too much of a good thing" but in most cases gave a wonderful warmth and impact to everything from orchestral spectaculars to funk.

Beyond voicing, very high efficiency speakers can offer the advantages of low distortion at
high SPL's, whether do to reduced driver excursions or amplifiers playing in their cleanest range, etc.
Many of the same attributes are exposed by good horns.
Great inner detail resolution being traded for some non-linear operation.
But the trade-off here are too extreme for 21st centruy design. IMO.

Opinion noted.

One can talk about how a speaker like the O/96 deviates from what is seen here as best practices.

But then there is still the subject of how these particular design choices come together: "what does it sound like?"

I'm glad I am not swayed by opinions that write off designs like this. I still have very vivid memories of hearing the most realistic recreation of drums that I've heard from a loudspeaker, on the Devore O/93s. The way string sections actually sounded both super vivid yet relaxed and more full bodied than on all the other speakers I auditioned.
The way some steel drums on a Jaco Pastorius track popped out with more size and tonal believably than I'd heard anywhere before or since. The way Julie London appeared singing in front of me seemingly made more corporeal flesh and blood than on the Paradigm, Revel or other speakers I tried. All sorts of stuff that just kept hitting my pleasure buttons. Would have been a shame to have been warned away from bothering with this "sub-21st century" design. ;-)

 

[computer-audiophile]

Further, I don't have just one taste, I enjoy different sounding speakers.

I'm not hunting for coloration per se. But if a non-neutral speaker does something cool, I'm open for that.

I think I'm also roughly in this camp.
Otherwise, this discussion is too hard-headed for me.

I usually have several systems set up in the house. That changes. Low-tech and high-tech coexist peacefully in my home. The boundary between science and art is also permeable for me. I am relaxed in both fields.

This attitude will probably not find much favour in ASR. Fortunately, I don't have to work in the audio industry. I would hate it.

BTW: I think it's good that some of the participants in the discussion have heard the Devore speakers for themselves and have therefore been able to form their own judgement.

 

[Sal1950]

The discussion section at the bottom is hysterical

Wow, too funny. I had to go take a look to see what was going on.
Seems like a few readers had finally grew a pair and stepped up to tell John and Art
they know a crap design when they see it.

Do we stop enjoying old technology, just because it's not up to today's standards?

No, but you don't race them against competition that's way over your head either.
This is a High Performance Audio Site.
Not a 70s Muscle/Lowrider Cruiser group.
Another guy that don't get a simple premise, sorry.

Further, I don't have just one taste, I enjoy different sounding speakers. One of my favourites were the Waveform Mach Solo speakers I had in my home for a while, which measured incredibly neutral with great off axis performance (they were measured in the NRC).

I'm not hunting for coloration per se. But if a non-neutral speaker does something cool, I'm open for that.

That's because your wallet is deep enough to play "speaker of the day", a luxury few of us have.
Again we fall into a conversation we've had many times.
I highly don't recommend people lock themselfs into poor performing components like these speakers, tube amps and such.
You can always dial in about any type of FR, distortion, etc if that's what you crave, but you can never dial out these things.
I little DSP can go a long way but you'll never make a Orangutan sound like a Revel Solon2 , JBL M2, or Genelec's

I disagree with your characterization. I think John was honestly reporting his impressions - that some of the issues he found in the measurements were not as obtrusive as he was expecting. Amir has said similar things about some speakers here. It's not like that doesn't happen.

On rare occasion.
But it's the SOP over there, they never heard an advertisers product they didn't like.
No matter how bad the measurements it always "sounds good to me" in the end.
When questioned on the subject John has made comments along the line of, "lifes to short to bother reviewing bad products".
Damn good cop-out.

 

[Waxx]

It's true that this site is about objective good performance, but subjective good performance is not always equal to objective good performance. But what mainly ditsturbs me about Devore, is the claim in their full name "Devore Hi Fidelity" (aka true to the source signal). And their speakers are not at all Hi fidelity. That is why I mentioned Harbeth, they don't claim hi fidelity, they claim a subjective nice sound with a relative clear way on how they get there. Devore does not, he claims magic properties to his speakers and results that can't be proven. Both don't fit to the standards of this site, but at least Harbeth is honest about that. And then it's not bad, you know what you get.

 

[Mart68]

I know that 1Khz peak and those resonances would get on my tits. After a while that's all I'd be hearing.

Did have a demo of a Devore but only stayed a couple of minutes as I know they're not my sort of thing.

No doubt they will be someone's sort of thing. I mean some people like Pernod. I'm surprised some found them acceptable with all types of music, since I doubt very much that they would do well with Foo Fighters, Thin Lizzy or anything in that broad church of rock.

I don't have an issue with weird loudspeakers or people selling or buying them. But let's not pretend that just because they have a niche market that audio science is wrong. That's my problem with Devore's rant. @kemmler3D already put it better than I have.

 

[Purité Audio]

They are excellent for parties, play a well known song and the first person to recognise it is the winner.
To shorten the length of each round use an egg timer.
Keith

 

[Mart68]

They are excellent for parties, play a well known song and the first person to recognise it is the winner.
To shorten the length of each round use an egg timer.
Keith

Just like the club singer round in 'Shooting Stars':

'Let's hear it sung properly.'

 

[ahofer]

It's true that this site is about objective good performance, but subjective good performance is not always equal to objective good performance. But what mainly ditsturbs me about Devore, is the claim in their full name "Devore Hi Fidelity" (aka true to the source signal). And their speakers are not at all Hi fidelity. That is why I mentioned Harbeth, they don't claim hi fidelity, they claim a subjective nice sound with a relative clear way on how they get there. Devore does not, he claims magic properties to his speakers and results that can't be proven. Both don't fit to the standards of this site, but at least Harbeth is honest about that. And then it's not bad, you know what you get.

Modern Harbeths have a FAR more linear presentation than that, and resonances are reduced below audible threshold. Dispersion is meh.

Harbeth Super HL5plus XD loudspeaker Measurements

Sidebar 3: Measurements

www.stereophile.com

 

[computer-audiophile]

Devore, is the claim in their full name "Devore Hi Fidelity" ... And their speakers are not at all Hi fidelity

I can leave it at that without any problems. Are we talking about high-end, SOTA or maximum fidelity? I think there is a relatively wide range in terms of hi-fi. Objectively, there are minimum requirements that are defined by DIN standards in Germany, for example. However, many loudspeakers exceed these.

 

[Sal1950]

Just like the club singer round in 'Shooting Stars':

LOL, I find it amazing that some folk find a guy acting the fool so funny?
At least they include a good laugh track so you know when to laugh. ROTF

 

[Sal1950]

Objectively, there are minimum requirements that are defined by DIN standards in Germany, for example.

Do you have a copy or can you link that?
I'd be very curious as to the spec.
TIA