Subjectivist’s rant debunked

[MattHooper]

The generally accepted range for somewhat accurate reproduction by loudspeakers is +/-3dB. So anything that doesn't meet those requirements cannot be considered to provide a somewhat accurate reproduction. If you are even going to argue about the generally accepted standard in the industry then the rest of you post is not even worth responding to.

You are missing the point, which was specifically directed at your personal characterization of the Devore speakers: "they are not even close to what was put on the disc."
I was getting at: what would such a claim actually mean in perceptual terms? What music reproduction will actually sound like vs a more neutral speaker (because it's how it sounds that we care about, right?)

Comparing the sound: If the neutral speaker will reproduce the recordings accurately, then your claim implies the Devores would reproduce the recordings "NOTHING LIKE" that heard through the neutral speakers.

And as I explained, I found that not to be the case. The recordings sounded very much like the same recordings as through more ASR-approved speakers, like Revel, Kii Audio and others. I heard all the same sonic information, the good and the bad, everything familiar came through the speakers. Which is why I characterized your "nothing like" claim as a gross exaggeration.

So, I don't know if you want to address that point or not.

 

[Koeitje]

You are missing the point, which was specifically directed at your personal characterization of the Devore speakers: "they are not even close to what was put on the disc."
I was getting at: what would such a claim actually mean in perceptual terms? What music reproduction will actually sound like vs a more neutral speaker (because it's how it sounds that we care about, right?)

Comparing the sound: If the neutral speaker will reproduce the recordings accurately, then your claim implies the Devores would reproduce the recordings "NOTHING LIKE" that heard through the neutral speakers.

And as I explained, I found that not to be the case. The recordings sounded very much like the same recordings as through more ASR-approved speakers, like Revel, Kii Audio and others. I heard all the same sonic information, the good and the bad, everything familiar came through the speakers. Which is why I characterized your "nothing like" claim as a gross exaggeration.

So, I don't know if you want to address that point or not.

What that means in perceptual terms? That what is on the recording is reproduced within a reasonable range, like the industry standard of +/-3dB for loudspeakers. On my laptop Chopin's nocturnes still sound like Chopin's nocturnes. I can hear all the details that make it Chopin's nocturnes. I guess my laptop speakers must be pretty good.

If you want to know what that means in perceptual terms? An instrument going through its entire range on the Devore speakers will not represent what was recorded. It will be too loud in certain parts and to quiet in others. You may like that for certain tracks or songs, but in the end its simply better to just buy a speaker that does a better job and then use a DSP. Which you can't do with the Devores because the directivity is all over the place.

Kind of an interesting because there have been passionate objectivist battles fought over smaller differences than that in speakers, though. And I am not about to revisit those ever. :-D

For sure, and that's why those Devore speakers are not really reproducing anything with any degree of accuracy. If that's your thing that's fine, but not everyone wants a equalizer or DSP they have no control over just thrown into their system.

 

[MattHooper]

What that means in perceptual terms? That what is on the recording is reproduced within a reasonable range, like the industry standard of +/-3dB for loudspeakers. On my laptop Chopin's nocturnes still sound like Chopin's nocturnes. I can hear all the details that make it Chopin's nocturnes. I guess my laptop speakers must be pretty good.

Music through your laptop wouldn't sound much like the music through Revel speakers.

Whereas music through the Devore speakers sounded more like music through the Revel (and other) speakers, than not.

If you want to know what that means in perceptual terms? An instrument going through its entire range on the Devore speakers will not represent what was recorded. It will be too loud in certain parts and to quiet in others.

I didn't find that.

With the exception of quick moments in two tracks that I can remember which I mentioned earlier (a harp piece and during some string pizzicato), everything else sounded balanced, like through the other neutral speakers. The female vocalist in my test tracks didn't sound "less or more" quiet than on the other speakers. The sibiliance I'm used to hearing was there as it always is, not covered up, not exaggerated. And as I said, the tiniest details I'm familiar with - the type of details you hear in high performance loudspeakers vs a laptop or smart speaker - were there, just like in the neutral speakers.

I think it comes down to your speculating, without having done these specific comparisons.

You may like that for certain tracks or songs, but in the end its simply better to just buy a speaker that does a better job and then use a DSP. Which you can't do with the Devores because the directivity is all over the place.

I agree, that's sensible advice, generally speaking.

On the other hand, if you like the Devore sound, no extra DSP expense or fiddling required.

For sure, and that's why those Devore speakers are not really reproducing anything with any degree of accuracy.

Once again I find this an exaggeration, in terms of real world performance. I have already mentioned how the Devores reproduced plenty of the recorded details with a significant amount of accuracy, as compared to accurate speakers.

I'm trying to keep perspective here: We are audiophiles, so we tend to blow small things up in importance. The type of sonic differences I heard with the Devores are certainly important ones to me, but in the big picture, they are subtle with respect to the amount of recorded information contained in the recordings. Every recording had it's specific, distinct character through the Devores, and they were highly revealing of all the characteristics of each recording, just like I heard through the other speakers.

 

[pablolie]

For sure, and that's why those Devore speakers are not really reproducing anything with any degree of accuracy. If that's your thing that's fine, but not everyone wants a equalizer or DSP they have no control over just thrown into their system.

My point was just that even within very accurate speakers that are within 2dB of each other within the entire freq, some "objectivists" go into passionate battles about being able to hear huge differences and such. Sometimes measurements enable something I'd call "pseudo-objectivist subjectivism", that's all. It has manifested itself in this forum repeatedly. No biggie for me, this ultimately is -whether we admit it or not- a subjectivist hobby. We have our likes and dislikes, not all of those will ever be really measurable, and they don't have to be.
I could not care less if someone pays $10M for a stamp you can't put on a letter for 100 years. That's not my trigger. It's just when someone argues that's the only stamp you should use.

 

[Koeitje]

My point was just that even within very accurate speakers that are within 2dB of each other within the entire freq, some "objectivists" go into passionate battles about being able to hear huge differences and such. Sometimes measurements enable something I'd call "pseudo-objectivist subjectivism", that's all. It has manifested itself in this forum repeatedly. No biggie for me, this ultimately is -whether we admit it or not- a subjectivist hobby. We have our likes and dislikes, not all of those will ever be really measurable, and they don't have to be.
I could not care less if someone pays $10M for a stamp you can't put on a letter for 100 years. That's not my trigger. It's just when someone argues that's the only stamp you should use.

There are still major differences because of different radiation patterns, distortion, SPL limit and bass extension. But frequency response is one of the first things you have to get within a decent range to be able to say it reproduces the recording in a fairly representative way.

Music through your laptop wouldn't sound much like the music through Revel speakers.

Whereas music through the Devore speakers sounded more like music through the Revel (and other) speakers, than not.

So there is a completely arbitrary line you are drawing? Yet using the industry standard of +/-3dB to determine if a loudspeaker is producing what is on the recording in a competent way is complete nonsense?

I didn't find that.

With the exception of quick moments in two tracks that I can remember which I mentioned earlier (a harp piece and during some string pizzicato), everything else sounded balanced, like through the other neutral speakers. The female vocalist in my test tracks didn't sound "less or more" quiet than on the other speakers. The sibiliance I'm used to hearing was there as it always is, not covered up, not exaggerated. And as I said, the tiniest details I'm familiar with - the type of details you hear in high performance loudspeakers vs a laptop or smart speaker - were there, just like in the neutral speakers.

I think it comes down to your speculating, without having done these specific comparisons.

I agree, that's sensible advice, generally speaking.

On the other hand, if you like the Devore sound, no extra DSP expense or fiddling required.

Once again I find this an exaggeration, in terms of real world performance. I have already mentioned how the Devores reproduced plenty of the recorded details with a significant amount of accuracy, as compared to accurate speakers.

You seem to be falling in the age old trap of confusing high frequency boosts with detail.

I'm trying to keep perspective here: We are audiophiles, so we tend to blow small things up in importance. The type of sonic differences I heard with the Devores are certainly important ones to me, but in the big picture, they are subtle with respect to the amount of recorded information contained in the recordings. Every recording had it's specific, distinct character through the Devores, and they were highly revealing of all the characteristics of each recording, just like I heard through the other speakers.

Like I already said at the start, I'm not an audiophile. I just like high-fidelity audio.

 

[Geert]

My point was just that even within very accurate speakers that are within 2dB of each other within the entire freq, some "objectivists" go into passionate battles about being able to hear huge differences and such

Within 2dB of what? On axis response, power response? Probably both to sound somewhat similar, which requires both speakers to also have a pretty similar directivity response. And also tuning an distortion characteristics of the low end define a speakers sound, and power handling, compression, group delay, port resonance ... In other words, in practise you would need to do your best to select 2 speakers that sound pretty similar.

And even then, rest assured following 3 response curves will sound notably different. Like 10/10 in an ABX test.



So I believe your 2dB criteria is too much of a simplification.

It's also a bit funny to call out people for discussing 2dB differences while most of the audiophile scene has a full time job discussing 0dB differences

 

[computer-audiophile]

In the ASR, you are directly exposed to those who set themselves up as judges of everyone and everything, who are rarely open to arguments, but are all the more open to questions of habitus and rites of confession. The most important thing is to be completely committed to one-sidedness. Not the slightest ambiguity must be allowed.

 

[Purité Audio]

ASR celebrates good engineering, I don’t believe any member here gives a hoot what you as an individual listens to or how you listen to it.
But I/we believe it is important that you realise why a component does sound different, a little technical knowledge stops you being ripped off.
Keith

 

[MattHooper]

So there is a completely arbitrary line you are drawing? Yet using the industry standard of +/-3dB to determine if a loudspeaker is producing what is on the recording in a competent way is complete nonsense?

No, I'm saying that your exaggerated characterization of the sonic consequences - that the Devores would play recordings "not even close to what was put on the disc" - is closer to nonsense.

And yes there is a level of arbitrariness, which has been my point. Claims like "not even close" are too subjective and ambiguous. If you stuck strictly to the technical claim the Devores measured outside strictest standards of neutrality, I'd agree. It's only that you went on to claim the results would be "not even close to what was put on the disc" that I push back, if that was meant to be a claim about the actual audible, subjective consequences of the measurements.

You seem to be falling in the age old trap of confusing high frequency boosts with detail.

I manipulate sound every day using EQ. I'm quite aware of what differences in frequency response can bring to the table. And like anyone I've heard plenty of speakers with a high frequency boost, exaggerating detail, as well as speakers that roll off the highs, as well as neutral speakers. It's against that field that I was evaluating the Devores. In the set ups I auditioned, they did not produce a sound that I found was obviously exaggerating the highs, or detail, or exacerbating things like sibiliance.

This is why in my reply to you I was specific about making this point (which you seem to have ignored):

"With the exception of quick moments in two tracks that I can remember which I mentioned earlier (a harp piece and during some string pizzicato), everything else sounded balanced, like through the other neutral speakers. The female vocalist in my test tracks didn't sound "less or more" quiet than on the other speakers. The sibiliance I'm used to hearing was there as it always is, not covered up, not exaggerated. And as I said, the tiniest details I'm familiar with - the type of details you hear in high performance loudspeakers vs a laptop or smart speaker - were there, just like in the neutral speakers."

Like I already said at the start, I'm not an audiophile. I just like high-fidelity audio.

That's cool. I totally respect that. And I think we've gone as far as we can in this conversation, and we'll see things differently. Thanks.

 

[Victor Martell]

ASR celebrates good engineering, I don’t believe any member here gives a hoot what you as an individual listens to or how you listen to it.
But I/we believe it is important that you realise why a component does sound different, a little technical knowledge stops you being ripped off.
Keith

He - I love ASR and I am here out of conviction - but members "not giving a hoot on how you listen to" ? haha
I mean, again, love ASR and won't say anything bad about it or its members outside this forum (we have to support each other against the bigger issue in audio) BUT just look at the "vinyl renaissance" thread... what part of "I just like it" is not clear and why can't people let go?

v

 

[Purité Audio]

I must admit I haven’t read that thread, but many still believe analogue to be somehow superior when clearly it isn’t , many strive to make their digital replay sound more analogue, personally I can’t think of anything worse .
If ASR points out that it’s fine to like vinyl despite its flaws then that is good,
Keith