Studio monitor tradeoffs - questions for music mixers

[a4eaudio]

I do NOT mix music but have been reading about some studio monitors recently and have some questions for those who actually do mix music and have experience with studio monitors.

In particular, I was reading about the Barefoot Footprint01 and Footprint03 monitors. (These are just examples though, I'm not looking for opinions on them as I won't be buying them.) The Footprint01 monitors have an F3 of 36Hz which from what I can tell is quite good for studio monitors. However, one of the comments stated that it was really hard to mix bass well without having separate subs, so he was crossing over to subs and not utilizing that benefit anyways. Max SPL is not stated for these on Sweetwater's product page.

The Footprint03 monitors have an F3 of 45Hz which isn't horrible. Max SPL is 101db (presumably at 1m). I see some Neumann's and Genelec's with max SPL of greater than 110db.

1. So, how important is LOW frequency response to you? Especially something like 36hz vs 45Hz and what is the highest F3 you would find acceptable?
2. How important is max SPL to you and what is a minimum you would find acceptable?
3. Thinking of Hoffman's Iron law, something has to give. Is the size of the monitor much of a constraint (I'm not talking huge, but say 0.50 cubic feet vs 1.0 cubic feet) or are you okay with big if that is what is needed to get the low frequency and SPL requirements?
4. Do you prefer studio monitors to have wide directivity, more narrow directivity, or indifferent as long as it is smooth and controlled directivity?

 

[Ktacos]

Most monitors have plenty of low end to mix on, the problem is the room trashes the low end response so much that you generally need to invest in some subwoofers to get it up to par.

However, one of the comments stated that it was really hard to mix bass well without having separate subs

Dude probably had some major room issues.

 

[darakon]

I do NOT mix music but have been reading about some studio monitors recently and have some questions for those who actually do mix music and have experience with studio monitors.

In particular, I was reading about the Barefoot Footprint01 and Footprint03 monitors. (These are just examples though, I'm not looking for opinions on them as I won't be buying them.) The Footprint01 monitors have an F3 of 36Hz which from what I can tell is quite good for studio monitors. However, one of the comments stated that it was really hard to mix bass well without having separate subs, so he was crossing over to subs and not utilizing that benefit anyways. Max SPL is not stated for these on Sweetwater's product page.

The Footprint03 monitors have an F3 of 45Hz which isn't horrible. Max SPL is 101db (presumably at 1m). I see some Neumann's and Genelec's with max SPL of greater than 110db.

1. So, how important is LOW frequency response to you? Especially something like 36hz vs 45Hz and what is the highest F3 you would find acceptable?
2. How important is max SPL to you and what is a minimum you would find acceptable?
3. Thinking of Hoffman's Iron law, something has to give. Is the size of the monitor much of a constraint (I'm not talking huge, but say 0.50 cubic feet vs 1.0 cubic feet) or are you okay with big if that is what is needed to get the low frequency and SPL requirements?
4. Do you prefer studio monitors to have wide directivity, more narrow directivity, or indifferent as long as it is smooth and controlled directivity?

1. Low Frequencies:
If you want to listen to Music, normally a F3 of 50Hz is enough.
Lower than this, you have no relevant information for Music, but the very low frequencies can make your room 'ring'.
It's more important to place the speaker as good as possible in your room and correct the room modes in the bass frequencies.
If you want to watch movies, a very low frequency extension could make sense (If you want to make the room shake)
2. For me not. Normally for me it's "too loud" far before the speaker reaches its limit. Would only be important, if you have a very big room, long listening distance and want to make club.
3. 'Small Speaker', 'Deep Bass' or 'Loud': you can have only 2 of these the same time.
4. I preferre wide directivity. But that's only my personal oppinion.

 

[Ktacos]

If you want to listen to Music, normally a F3 of 50Hz is enough.
Lower than this, you have no relevant information for Music, but the very low frequencies can make your room 'ring'.

 

[Kyle_PL]

1. Low Frequencies:
If you want to listen to Music, normally a F3 of 50Hz is enough.

In mine opinion 37Hz @-3dB (without any dB loss of course will be better).

Why? - I've made test, using Adobe Audition, looking at frequency plot, and play'ing many music/songs (Beyonce, Mike Oldfiled, Vivaldi - many, many). I saw the most of music, go down to ~37Hz.

So if You have speakers go down to 50Hz @ -3dB, there will be practically nothing at 37Hz (BIG dB drop), so You will loose a lot of information/music.

Speakers (or systems with subs) going deeper (eg. 25Hz @-3dB) will play correctly this songs, in which there is something under 30Hz - rare but existing.

 

[goat76]

Don't fall for the idea of going for small speakers that have a very low bass extension, physics is physics and there is no way going around that without the distortion level shooting through the roof, even at a fairly moderate SPL. The physical size of the speakers should determine how low they go and still keep the distortion level in check, and if a lower bass extension is needed it's better to let a pair of subwoofers handle the rest.

 

[Purité Audio]

Displacement rather than physical size.
Keith

 

[a4eaudio]

Most monitors have plenty of low end to mix on, the problem is the room trashes the low end response so much that you generally need to invest in some subwoofers to get it up to par.


Dude probably had some major room issues.

In home HiFi I know it is typical that to eliminate room nodes you need multiple subwoofers almost always in locations different from where you would put the main speakers. But home HiFi also has you listening in the farfield. I wasn't sure if there are significant differences between home HiFi and mixing, especially with regards to the lowest frequencies.

I know from your other posts that you mix in a modest sized home studio - do you use separate subs? How low do you feel your monitors need to go?

 

[a4eaudio]

Don't fall for the idea of going for small speakers that have a very low bass extension, physics is physics and there is no way going around that without the distortion level shooting through the roof, even at a fairly moderate SPL. The physical size of the speakers should determine how low they go and still keep the distortion level in check, and if a lower bass extension is needed it's better to let a pair of subwoofers handle the rest.

Yes, but this brings up a point. You can get low bass extension, with the appropriately sized woofers, two ways. You can have large studio monitors with large woofers reaching as low as you need. OR, you can have modest sized studio monitors and move the large woofers to separate subs. So which would you choose if you could get the same low end response for the same amount of money, integrated woofers or separate subwoofer boxes?

 

[a4eaudio]

1. Low Frequencies:
If you want to listen to Music, normally a F3 of 50Hz is enough.

I don't disagree with this, with regards to listening to music. I have some small 5" bookshelf speakers with an F3 that I can sit casually and listen to and not miss much. However, all of my full sized speakers have F3 of 35Hz or so.

Lower than this, you have no relevant information for Music, but the very low frequencies can make your room 'ring'.

I do disagree here, there is a quite a bit of information in almost all music below 50Hz. But the F3 may not be the best measure of what you are getting. Looking at F6 or F10 may be more relevant. A ported speaker is going to drop fast below F3. But a sealed speaker has a shallower rolloff.

But here I think the distinction has to be made by "normal music listening" and "mixing". While I may not be missing much sitting on my computer listening to 5" speakers with an F3 of 55Hz while I browse ASR, that is not the same as being able to critically mix something and get that information below 55hz correct for the person who is listening on headphones or speakers that can actually resolve those lower frequencies.

 

[Ktacos]

In home HiFi I know it is typical that to eliminate room nodes you need multiple subwoofers almost always in locations different from where you would put the main speakers. But home HiFi also has you listening in the farfield. I wasn't sure if there are significant differences between home HiFi and mixing, especially with regards to the lowest frequencies.

Sound waves behave the same whether it's hifi or studio gear. My living room system is optimized pretty much the same as my more studio oriented spaces.

I know from your other posts that you mix in a modest sized home studio - do you use separate subs? How low do you feel your monitors need to go?

I have two subs on both setups, but I could definitely mix fine without them, in fact I do most of the time. Getting good mixes is more about how I'm feeling and how my sleep was than the bass extension of my speakers. I generally find I prefer my speakers to reach down to at least the mid 30's or else it feels like something is missing.

 

[Ellebob]

In home HiFi I know it is typical that to eliminate room nodes you need multiple subwoofers almost always in locations different from where you would put the main speakers. But home HiFi also has you listening in the farfield. I wasn't sure if there are significant differences between home HiFi and mixing, especially with regards to the lowest frequencies.

Not entirely true. In HT the use of multiple subs is to get similar bass response in multiple seats. If you only care about one seat, like many mixing situations, you can put the seat and one sub in good locations and you are all set. Good location means the seat is not in any dips caused from room modes, then EQ any peaks. Room modes happen in certain areas of the room based on the dimensions and qualities of the room. In the ideal rectangular room, the room modes will happen at the 1/4,1/2 and 3/4 points of each dimension. In non-rectangular rooms, it is a little harder to predict.

 

[a4eaudio]

Not entirely true. In HT the use of multiple subs is to get similar bass response in multiple seats. If you only care about one seat, like many mixing situations, you can put the seat and one sub in good locations and you are all set. Good location means the seat is not in any dips caused from room modes, then EQ any peaks. Room modes happen in certain areas of the room based on the dimensions and qualities of the room. In the ideal rectangular room, the room modes will happen at the 1/4,1/2 and 3/4 points of each dimension. In non-rectangular rooms, it is a little harder to predict.

Great point, thank you!

 

[Ktacos]

Not entirely true. In HT the use of multiple subs is to get similar bass response in multiple seats. If you only care about one seat, like many mixing situations, you can put the seat and one sub in good locations and you are all set. Good location means the seat is not in any dips caused from room modes, then EQ any peaks. Room modes happen in certain areas of the room based on the dimensions and qualities of the room. In the ideal rectangular room, the room modes will happen at the 1/4,1/2 and 3/4 points of each dimension. In non-rectangular rooms, it is a little harder to predict.

Not IME. I've never gotten one sub to sound right. The pressurization difference is what gets me, generally a sub is off to one side of a room and I can tell. I can't localize it but my brain notices different pressure between left and right ear. Even with a single listening position multiple subs help. Multisub is a thing in mix work as well, just not many people have caught onto it yet.

 

[goat76]

Yes, but this brings up a point. You can get low bass extension, with the appropriately sized woofers, two ways. You can have large studio monitors with large woofers reaching as low as you need. OR, you can have modest sized studio monitors and move the large woofers to separate subs. So which would you choose if you could get the same low end response for the same amount of money, integrated woofers or separate subwoofer boxes?

For mixing music, I would go for speakers suited for near-field or mid-field listening as that will likely give me a higher ratio of direct sound which is important when mixing music. So that leaves most large studio monitors out of the question, as the ones large enough to reach down to the sub-bass level on their own (without adding too much distortion) will likely be best suited for far-field listening.

 

[DVDdoug]

I don't do mixing or any "serious" audio work...

"Main monitors" in a pro studio are large, full-range (down to 20Hz), capable of going loud, and expensive. Here is something a quick search turned-up.

They also usually also have smaller near-field monitors. When you see a photo of a studio, you'll usually see the mixing desk and some small monitors but the main monitors aren't always in the image.

There are lots of small monitors sold for home studio use and a lot of them are small, with small woofers and limited bass, so a subwoofer is often used with it. You can't get realistic bass that you can feel in your body from a 5 or 6-inch woofer.

Lots of people have hi-fi or home theater speakers that are better than these small "monitors".

 

[Ellebob]

Not IME. I've never gotten one sub to sound right. The pressurization difference is what gets me, generally a sub is off to one side of a room and I can tell. I can't localize it but my brain notices different pressure between left and right ear. Even with a single listening position multiple subs help. Multisub is a thing in mix work as well, just not many people have caught onto it yet.

I wouldn't put one sub off to the side of the room. Visual cues are important as well or even knowing it is off to the side. Perception is not reality in sighted tests or knowing the location. Research has shown average performing speakers that look impressive get higher scores in a sighted test than their blind scores. We have had classes with this and been blind folded trying to localize a sub. It was surprising how far off we could be sometimes.

Even with wavelengths of 14ft to over 50ft for frequencies below 80hz that easily wrap around your head, visual cues throws us off. We are all guilty of this believe it or not.

I will say that while we can't localize frequencies that low we do localize resonances that happen at higher frequencies. Those resonances might be low in volume but it is still something we pick up on even if we don't recognize it as a resonance. Finding resonances and correcting them is part of a good calibration.

I would put the sub somewhere near the speakers preferably between them when possible.

 

[Sacha]

Getting low end right in your average sized room isn't easy. I chose dual subs because you get more placement flexibility that way, and physical placement counts for a lot when working against room modes. Speakers with cardioid bass is another option although that doesn't entirely ameliorate the issue either. If you have the luxury of:

1. Experimenting with speakers physical placement and measuring the results
2. Adding a lot of deep absorption
3. Adding DSP to help with the finishing touches + sub integration

You can get some great results in a home studio. For some people just getting some decent headphones to check low end might be a better / easier option.

 

[a4eaudio]

Getting low end right in your average sized room isn't easy....

Yeah, for what I am thinking I think I will just do the best I can on the low end, but not sacrifice sensitivity and especially distortion to get a little lower. I think I can get to an F3 of 45Hz pretty easy. Its funny, but getting to 37Hz (which doesn't "seem" that drastically different) is really pretty tough unless I go quite a bit more expensive and quite a bit larger enclosure.

 

[Smaestro]

I mix on headphones and I master on large far field mains and headphones. I have small nearfields, they are just for when I don’t want to wear headphones. So FWIW.

1. So, how important is LOW frequency response to you? Especially something like 36hz vs 45Hz and what is the highest F3 you would find acceptable?

Extremely. Low is what the body feels. You need to tune what the body feels, it’s an integral part of music experience. Does the beat make you want to bounce, is it disappointingly empty or is the kick drum overpowering on proper hifi speakers?

Also if I can’t hear what’s happening down low, I will likely put useless energy in there. That counts towards the LUFS without actually increasing the perceived loudness. Thus on the streaming platforms that normalise the loudness, my songs would always sound softer than others. Instant skip for many listeners.
A mastering engineer can prevent mishaps like that, but still.

F3 30Hz at least. This is my main reason to mix on headphones.

1. How important is max SPL to you and what is a minimum you would find acceptable?
2. Thinking of Hoffman's Iron law, something has to give. Is the size of the monitor much of a constraint (I'm not talking huge, but say 0.50 cubic feet vs 1.0 cubic feet) or are you okay with big if that is what is needed to get the low frequency and SPL requirements?
3. Do you prefer studio monitors to have wide directivity, more narrow directivity, or indifferent as long as it is smooth and controlled directivity?

SPL: I mix at 75 dB SPL RMS (unweighted) and check at max on 80, so whatever speakers can do that, plus about 16dB for dynamic range. 96 dB SPL.

Size: No preference as long as it fits in the room. The mains are 8 cubic feet.

For directivity I think it depends on the room, but I prefer wider in a good room.

Distortion is a metric I’d add. Loudness and bass extention are nothing if not clean. Distortion is an important mixing tool, as well as consequence of compression, so monitors need to be able to be clean.