Studio/Monitor Sub vs HT Sub?

[dasdoing]

on Gearslutz, even most there hate KRK, people are always praising the KRK10s (in the lines of best in price range). with that beeing said, it doesn't realy go deep, but his bigger brother does: https://www.amazon.com/KRK-12S2-Powered-Studio-Subwoofer/dp/B01I497XRQ?ref_=ast_sto_dp

 

[richard12511]

What are the differences between these two kind of subs? I've been looking at some of the studio subwoofers and their price seems incredibly disproportionate to the apparent sound they can produce (compared to HT).

Take the Genelec 7350 APM for example: Just under £1000 and you only get a 150W 8" sub that can just about hit 25Hz? Whereas you can get an SVS PC-2000 Pro for also just under £1000 and get 500W and a 12" sub that can easily hit 20Hz? If you EQ the Genelec sub to hit 20Hz flat you'll lose out on total SPL.


Just trying to get an understanding on why there is this price mismatch?

Thanks.

Even SVS is a bit overpriced relative to Rythmik.

Subwoofers are a simple technology, so the Neumann/Genelec R&D is somewhat meaningless here, but there are still other differences, the biggest of which is connections. Studio subs are designed to be connected in a studio environment.

I also don't see the QC issue as a huge deal here, as SVS is just as known for there quality control and customer service as Genelec.

Similarly, I see "Made in China" as an advantage. It allows them to charge the consumer less, and I don't see the Chinese as less capable than the Finns.

Another big difference is GLM, though for the up charge you pay for studio subs, you can usually buy the HT sub + Dirac Live and a have a better sub, and equivalent room correction(or better, at least sonically, and non proprietary). The non-proprietary aspect of Dirac vs Genelec is a big one for me.

Mostly, you're paying more because of the Genelec name, and the R&D they've done for their loudspeakers. People assume that their R&D will magically make their subs sound better than other companies subs, but it really won't. Subs are a much more simple and solved technology.
Sound Quality is all about driver size, box size, and amplifier power.

Also people will often pay more to buy everything from the same company.


My opinion, go with SVS(or Rythmik if it's in your country).

 

[richard12511]

You are talking Hz and SPL but aren’t transient response and sound quality the larger part of the equation?

For speakers, yes. For subs, no. Sound quality(ignoring output capability) will be exactly equal between Genelec and SVS.

 

[richard12511]

By the way, anyone knows other subs than the SVS 4000 series than can completely replace a studio subwoofer (balanced line level in/out and active crossover)?

Rythmik subs all have that option. JTR also has a "Pro" line as well as their consumer line, though I bet Jeff would do it for a consumer sub if you ask.

 

[richard12511]

Depending on the equipment the user already owns and intended use case, price difference can be a little less drastic - for me I want to add a subwoofer to a pair of active studio monitors that are connected to a PC via a stereo DAC.

I have a choice of either

• buying a more expensive studio subwoofer, letting it take care of the crossover
• buying a cheaper HT/stereo subwoofer, AND buy some sort of external crossover/bass management solution

The first option is very appealing for me due to simplicity, but if my speakers were connected via a receiver that already had subwoofer out, or if I wasn't connecting to a PC that I can apply my EQ with, and needed to get an external DSP solution the second option would make more sense.

Though I gotta say, even though I like the first option more, the price/performance for the kind of low end extension I would like is so drastic in my price range, that I probably will end up going with number two anyway. It's also compounded by the fact that in my country I really can't get any used/closeout studio subwoofers to save money, whereas there are some interesting options for older HT subwoofers available.

Option 1 is simpler.
Option 2 will sound better.

That's the choice you're really making, imo.

 

[sigbergaudio]

For speakers, yes. For subs, no. Sound quality(ignoring output capability) will be exactly equal between Genelec and SVS.

That is objectively not true at all. The quality of both amplifier and driver, and not least the quality of the cabinet design and build very much impact sound quality of a subwoofer.

 

[richard12511]

That is objectively not true at all. The quality of both amplifier and driver, and not least the quality of the cabinet design and build very much impact sound quality of a subwoofer.

I don't disagree, and perhaps I overstated a bit. Driver and amp definitely matter, but amp linearity/distortion/noise, driver distortion, and driver transient response have all been driven down below the limits of human hearing in the past 15 years. Not saying there aren't subs with worse sound quality out there, but Rythmik, JTR, SVS, PSA, Genelec, and Neumann are all of excellent enough quality that I'd be willing to bet money that no one can tell them a part on frequency content above 40Hz(at least at levels the latter two can handle) after EQ. There are also other sub manufacturers that have reached the limits of human hearing, but I just listed a few.

You can get more info at data-bass. They do every kind of measurement imaginable for subs. It's a great way to find a sub completely objectively. I also find that the companies sending their subs in for testing also happen to be the best sub designers. You won't see a lot of REL subs there.

I see that you're a sub manufacturer, though. So I'll take your opinion with a grain of salt. Hard to remain unbiased when there is financial incentive. Perhaps you should send one of your subs to data-bass so we all can compare it to the subs I mentioned.

 

[sigbergaudio]

I don't disagree, and perhaps I overstated a bit. Driver and amp definitely matter, but amp linearity/distortion/noise, driver distortion, and driver transient response have all been driven down below the limits of human hearing in the past 15 years. Not saying there aren't subs with worse sound quality out there, but Rythmik, JTR, SVS, PSA, Genelec, and Neumann are all of excellent enough quality that I'd be willing to bet money that no one can tell them a part on frequency content above 40Hz(at least at levels the latter two can handle) after EQ. There are also other sub manufacturers that have reached the limits of human hearing, but I just listed a few.

You can get more info at data-bass. They do every kind of measurement imaginable for subs. It's a great way to find a sub completely objectively. I also find that the companies sending their subs in for testing also happen to be the best sub designers. You won't see a lot of REL subs there.

I see that you're a sub manufacturer, though. So I'll take your opinion with a grain of salt. Hard to remain unbiased when there is financial incentive. Perhaps you should send one of your subs to data-bass so we all can compare it to the subs I mentioned.

Concluding that all subwoofers sound the same will definitely not be to my benefit, so I'm happy to accept your grain of salt.


I'm aware of data-bass.com and have great respect for their work. Getting a subwoofer tested there would likely be very good marketing, so that may absolutely happen at some point. I'm not aware of whether one can just send any sub to them to get tested, but will inquire.

Anyway, back to the topic. How air moves and how the subwoofer interacts with the room (and also with the main speakers with regards to phase) differs quite significantly for instance between a sealed and ported enclosure, depending on the roll-off of the subwoofer crossover (12/18/24db/octave), etc.. EQ is not guaranteed to iron out those differences in any (or even most) rooms. You are listing a number of good manufacturers, and being a manufacturer myself it would not be good style to say anything negative about them.

Your initial statement was that Genelec and SVS would sound the same. And the implication then being (my interpretation) that basically any sub sounded the same (since they both have a number of subs). I very much doubt even all SVS subwoofers sound the same.

I will however agree to the following: Two well designed subs of the same enclosure type and with similar frequency response and extension that is not driven beyond their limits, will sound very similar.

 

[q3cpma]

I do not know if reference to another forum discussion is accepted, I would have referenced a link to this discussion, in Audioholics that has some answers.
From that discussion: SVS, Revel, Velodyne.

One interesting choice is the JBL LSR310S 10 inch Powered Studio Subwoofer.. It has an internal crossover, balanced inputs and outputs. It cost $400... I have no experience with it.

P.S. Ryhtmik has that as an option. It replaces the PEQ board though or so I read

Can't find Revel or Velodyne here, and the prices are probably very high. SVS can be found, but only the 4000 model has balanced IN/OUT, which is quite big and pricy; and it's just me, but while I have nothing against Chinese companies, I do smell corner cutting when you have outsourcing in China by US/European companies.
Velodyne being absent is strange, must be related to its buyout.

Would be nice if we had something like Rythmik or HSU, here.

Even SVS is a bit overpriced relative to Rythmik.

Subwoofers are a simple technology, so the Neumann/Genelec R&D is somewhat meaningless here, but there are still other differences, the biggest of which is connections. Studio subs are designed to be connected in a studio environment.

I'd say it depends. Sealed subwoofers are a simple equation, but good bass reflex isn't easy to do well. Actually, my opinion is that bass reflex is one of the hardest thing to perfect; which may have created the half-true "sealed superiority" myth.

I also don't see the QC issue as a huge deal here, as SVS is just as known for there quality control and customer service as Genelec.

I never said I had a particular issue with SVS, but I know no brand can reach Genelec here, this is literally why people pay that much. My logic is that outsourcing to China is made to save money, and extensive QC by trained staff is very expensive, so I expect the corner cutting to hit here first, even if that means using a good warranty like SVS to offset that.
Looking at any photo of their Sledge amp, you see low quality caps, crowded PCBs and a massive amount of gunk to drown everything together. The 8351B (admittedly a way more expensive product) dissassembled here showed something more reassuring: WIMA, Rubycon and Samwha.

Similarly, I see "Made in China" as an advantage. It allows them to charge the consumer less, and I don't see the Chinese as less capable than the Finns

See above, and about the inherent differences (ot lack of) between nations, this isn't really the thread. Let's say that I'd like to see Chinese companies doing pro speakers with high standards, it'd be interesting.

Another big difference is GLM, though for the up charge you pay for studio subs, you can usually buy the HT sub + Dirac Live and a have a better sub, and equivalent room correction(or better, at least sonically, and non proprietary). The non-proprietary aspect of Dirac vs Genelec is a big one for me.

I'm a UNIX user, all of this is proprietary anyway. Even if Dirac is as good, I really like knowing that a company that is very unlikely to go bust is behind its own system.
But I understand what you mean, and not being vendor locked is an advantage, of course.

Mostly, you're paying more because of the Genelec name, and the R&D they've done for their loudspeakers. People assume that their R&D will magically make their subs sound better than other companies subs, but it really won't. Subs are a much more simple and solved technology.
Sound Quality is all about driver size, box size, and amplifier power.

As I said, it's completely wrong with stuff like bass reflex, where Genelec purposedly went beyond "simple" with LSE (whose main advantage is enclosure size/port volume ratio and reduced turbulences). In the end, we would need for a good Genelec sub to be analyzed by data-bass to see if the equation is that simple.

Also people will often pay more to buy everything from the same company.

That's true, the vendor lock-in is put to use.

My opinion, go with SVS(or Rythmik if it's in your country).

Sadly, that's the problem, no Rythmik here. In the end, the SVS SB-4000 is the same price as a Genelec 7360A, and while its performance should be a lot better (I say should be, because sealed vs ported isn't easy to predict), I'm not sure it's worth it. The PB-4000 is almost the same price as a 7370A, too.
Not to mention that you can't use SVS' DSP without a smartphone.

 

[richard12511]

I'd say it depends. Sealed subwoofers are a simple equation, but good bass reflex isn't easy to do well. Actually, my opinion is that bass reflex is one of the hardest thing to perfect; which may have created the half-true "sealed superiority" myth.

You're right, ported is much trickier than sealed, but companies like SVS have optimized port dimensions and lengths beyond the limits of human hearing(imo, though I would love to be corrected on this). You can verify this by looking at data-bass. They have all sorts of measurements.

I'm a UNIX user, all of this is proprietary anyway. Even if Dirac is as good, I really like knowing that a company that is very unlikely to go bust is behind its own system.
But I understand what you mean, and not being vendor locked is an advantage, of course.

Me too. Actually, I regularly use several OSs, primarily Ubuntu(work and hobby coding), MacOS(Netlix/internet browsing), and Windows(gaming). I'd be surprised if Dirac went bust, but it's certainly more likely than Genelec going bust.

As I said, it's completely wrong with stuff like bass reflex, where Genelec purposedly went beyond "simple" with LSE (whose main advantage is enclosure size/port volume ratio and reduced turbulences). In the end, we would need for a good Genelec sub to be analyzed by data-bass to see if the equation is that simple.

IMO, Genelec's "claims" here are meaningless, and this is coming from a Genelec fanboy. Their whole claim to fame, and the reason I've become a fanboy, is based on measurements. They need to send all of their subs to databass to have them tested. The fact that a company so invested in measurements hasn't done this(or at least provided comparable measurements of their own) really makes me question their claims. From the science and measurements that are publicly available, Genelecs are terrible for the price.

Sadly, that's the problem, no Rythmik here. In the end, the SVS SB-4000 is the same price as a Genelec 7360A, and while its performance should be a lot better (I say should be, because sealed vs ported isn't easy to predict), I'm not sure it's worth it. The PB-4000 is almost the same price as a 7370A, too.
Not to mention that you can't use SVS' DSP without a smartphone.

Sorry about Rythmik, IMO, they make the worlds best subs under $1,000(~€ 850). If you're interested, JTR ships worldwide, but their cheapest subs are like € 2,000. They also have a pro line if you need balanced connections, though I bet Jeff would give you that for their consumer subs if you asked. Also, if (for some reason) you still don't think these ID companies have the engineering to design proper ports, the JTR RS2(sealed) will still objectively stomp the W371A in every way for half the price.

 

[q3cpma]

You're right, ported is much trickier than sealed, but companies like SVS have optimized port dimensions and lengths beyond the limits of human hearing(imo, though I would love to be corrected on this). You can verify this by looking at data-bass. They have all sorts of measurements.

Don't see anything about data-bass' measurements that would show chuffing, as FR graphs stop at 200 Hz and I see no close mic measurements for individual ports/drivers.
Anyway, I doubt they'd have problem, as their enclosures are quite big, the main point of LSE is to allow a low tuning with a small external volume but still a wide port.

IMO, Genelec's "claims" here are meaningless, and this is coming from a Genelec fanboy. Their whole claim to fame, and the reason I've become a fanboy, is based on measurements. They need to send all of their subs to databass to have them tested. The fact that a company so invested in measurements hasn't done this(or at least provided comparable measurements of their own) really makes me question their claims. From the science and measurements that are publicly available, Genelecs are terrible for the price.

I can't disagree here. But I do think everything (GLM vendor lock-in, lack of specific data, the prices, their website) points to Genelec selling complete systems, and not really bothering about the rest of the world. So if they say which subwoofer goes with what monitors, they've done their job.
If they gave some long term SPL limit, I'd find their specs complete enough for me.

Sorry about Rythmik, IMO, they make the worlds best subs under $1,000(~€ 850). If you're interested, JTR ships worldwide, but their cheapest subs are like € 2,000. They also have a pro line if you need balanced connections, though I bet Jeff would give you that for their consumer subs if you asked. Also, if (for some reason) you still don't think these ID companies have the engineering to design proper ports, the JTR RS2(sealed) will still objectively stomp the W371A in every way for half the price.

The problem is that JTR doesn't have "small" subs, and the premium for international voltage + shipping (and more shipping if I need the warranty) isn't small. And if I'm not mistaken, neither Rythmik nor JTR have a studio type crossover (2 XLR in, 2 XLR out), right?

Honestly, if I didn't plan on getting Genelec DSP speakers, I wouldn't really consider their subs.

 

[richard12511]

Don't see anything about data-bass' measurements that would show chuffing, as FR graphs stop at 200 Hz and I see no close mic measurements for individual ports/drivers.
Anyway, I doubt they'd have problem, as their enclosures are quite big, the main point of LSE is to allow a low tuning with a small external volume but still a wide port.


I can't disagree here. But I do think everything (GLM vendor lock-in, lack of specific data, the prices, their website) points to Genelec selling complete systems, and not really bothering about the rest of the world. So if they say which subwoofer goes with what monitors, they've done their job.
If they gave some long term SPL limit, I'd find their specs complete enough for me.


The problem is that JTR doesn't have "small" subs, and the premium for international voltage + shipping (and more shipping if I need the warranty) isn't small. And if I'm not mistaken, neither Rythmik nor JTR have a studio type crossover (2 XLR in, 2 XLR out), right?

Honestly, if I didn't plan on getting Genelec DSP speakers, I wouldn't really consider their subs.

You're right about JTR. They only have massive subs. It's a problem I wish they would address. Rythmik solves that problem, but they don't ship worldwide, so I definitely recognize your issue. JTR does offer different voltage based on country, but not sure about Rythmik.

 

[FeddyLost]

The problem is that JTR doesn't have "small" subs, and the premium for international voltage + shipping (and more shipping if I need the warranty) isn't small. And if I'm not mistaken, neither Rythmik nor JTR have a studio type crossover (2 XLR in, 2 XLR out), right?

You can support local vendor and consider Focal 6 sub.
No DSP, but locally available, I think.

 

[Verausci]

It seems to me that the Dynaudio 18S is quite good value based on its specs in comparison to other studio subs. I just find myself asking what the catch is.. They've rating it it as 16Hz (-3dB) which, for a sealed box, is really quite good I think (or have they just EQ'd it flat and then made the claim?).

Only snag is the integrated DSP will add latency.

 

[sigbergaudio]

It seems to me that the Dynaudio 18S is quite good value based on its specs in comparison to other studio subs. I just find myself asking what the catch is.. They've rating it it as 16Hz (-3dB) which, for a sealed box, is really quite good I think (or have they just EQ'd it flat and then made the claim?).

Only snag is the integrated DSP will add latency.

Modern DSPs are actually quite quick (down to a couple of milliseconds). And one 1ms equals 30cm (1 feet) distance. I'm sure you don't typically go "oh no my sub sounds slow" if you move it 3 feet away from your listening position.

 

[FeddyLost]

(or have they just EQ'd it flat and then made the claim?).

I can barely imagine sealed sub with 9,5" driver(s) without Linkwitz transform or any other LF shelf. All is up to displacement available.
And if we look at their sub9 test
https://estradaistudio.pl/testy/sprzet-studyjny/1319-9s-aktywny-subwoofer/1319/3385
We can suppose that Dynaudio is .. very tolerable to LF distortion.
Don't think that even 18S is a good solution for midfield if you need real 20 Hz. Maybe 2x18S for midfield.

 

[Verausci]

I can barely imagine sealed sub with 9,5" driver(s) without Linkwitz transform or any other LF shelf. All is up to displacement available.
And if we look at their sub9 test
https://estradaistudio.pl/testy/sprzet-studyjny/1319-9s-aktywny-subwoofer/1319/3385
We can suppose that Dynaudio is .. very tolerable to LF distortion.
Don't think that even 18S is a good solution for midfield if you need real 20 Hz. Maybe 2x18S for midfield.

Oh I see, am I right in thinking that a good way of telling whether a sub can truly handle the lower frequencies is to look at the distortion?

 

[FeddyLost]

Oh I see, am I right in thinking that a good way of telling whether a sub can truly handle the lower frequencies is to look at the distortion?

And power compression also.
Finally, it depends on your goals/requirements.
Human ear usually very tolerable for LF distortion, especially in music/movie track, but if you are really supposing studio sub, then your goal might be some production, and then you'd better have "proper" sound of subwoofer at your listening place with intended SPL. Just for better translation.
Otherwise there's no obvious reason to overpay for timbral accuracy of Godzilla's roar. For music consumption squeaky clean lowest octave is also disputable. Typical room will wreck it very much, so it's up to your budget.

 

[Verausci]

And power compression also.
Finally, it depends on your goals/requirements.
Human ear usually very tolerable for LF distortion, especially in music/movie track, but if you are really supposing studio sub, then your goal might be some production, and then you'd better have "proper" sound of subwoofer at your listening place with intended SPL. Just for better translation.
Otherwise there's no obvious reason to overpay for timbral accuracy of Godzilla's roar. For music consumption squeaky clean lowest octave is also disputable. Typical room will wreck it very much, so it's up to your budget.

Group delay/transient response too? (though from simulations I've looked at sealed subs tend to have very low group delay)

I do like my bass, so it'd be important at high SPLs for low distortion. I'm wondering whether in such a case a HT centric sub would be more appropriate than a studio sub to fill, for example, a 4x4m room

 

[FeddyLost]

Group delay/transient response too?

If you need it as control unit for reps or studio work, GD matters for sure.
Otherwise it's a one variable in your quiz. What will be the best compromise, you'll decide yourself. Preferably after listening test.

do like my bass, so it'd be important at high SPLs for low distortion

If you mean bass guitar, maybe you need combo? It's better suited for high SPL and low distortion in working range than any sub...

would be more appropriate than a studio sub to fill, for example, a 4x4m room

You need to formalize your requirements with numbers and then check out what is better suited. Good HT is always cheaper if we compare apples to apples.
There are lot of reviews of HT subs and typical studio subs are well documented.

For 4*4 m room with massive walls (not a bungalow) even good 10" like JL will pressurize a lot, so you'll need to equalize it.

If you need sub for band reps, you can try out PA or Cinema subs. They can be found used and they are extremely capable in their typical range, from 35 Hz and up.