Studio/Monitor Sub vs HT Sub?

[Verausci]

What are the differences between these two kind of subs? I've been looking at some of the studio subwoofers and their price seems incredibly disproportionate to the apparent sound they can produce (compared to HT).

Take the Genelec 7350 APM for example: Just under £1000 and you only get a 150W 8" sub that can just about hit 25Hz? Whereas you can get an SVS PC-2000 Pro for also just under £1000 and get 500W and a 12" sub that can easily hit 20Hz? If you EQ the Genelec sub to hit 20Hz flat you'll lose out on total SPL.


Just trying to get an understanding on why there is this price mismatch?

Thanks.

 

[Wombat]

Charge what the market will bear?

A tool vs a dream?

Features?

Cosmetics?

 

[q3cpma]

What are the differences between these two kind of subs? I've been looking at some of the studio subwoofers and their price seems incredibly disproportionate to the sound they can produce (compared to HT).

Take the Genelec 7350 APM for example: Just under £1000 and you only get a 150W 8" sub that can just about hit 25Hz? Whereas you can get an SVS PC-2000 Pro for also just under £1000 and get 500W and a 12" sub that can easily hit 20Hz? If you EQ the Genelec sub to hit 20Hz flat you'll lose out on total SPL.


Just trying to get an understanding on why there is this price mismatch?

Thanks.

Before starting, remember that you're comparing a LSE (new and unique ported design product of a great amount of R&D) subwoofer with a 5 channel crossover, made and quality checked in Finland with a quite conventional one made in China with an unknown amount of QC and no balanced connections except for the priciest 4000 models. Not to mention that GLM is probably way more advanced than a quick application for children's computers.
If that's understood, then yes, the performance gap is big, professionals pay a lot more for reliability and easy/powerful integration with a similar amount of performance.

The Kali WS-12 might be a better match at that price and for what you're seeking: 500W amp, 30Hz - 160 Hz at -3 dB and "max SPL" at 123 dB.

 

[Verausci]

If that's understood, then yes, the performance gap is big, professionals pay a lot more for reliability and easy/powerful integration with a similar amount of performance.

Very true, there is a lot of pointless extra stuff added onto the SVS that wouldn't be needed in a proper setup (the lack of balanced is surprising but also unsurprising for the target audience).

5 channel crossover

Only needed I'd argue if you don't have a centralised DSP.


I've recently become aware of the Monoprice Monolith which seems like one of the best subs I've ever seen (at a good price). But I lament its unavailability outside of the US

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

No experience with either the SVS and the Genelec.
Here I go.

Let's drop the nationalist and sometimes xenophobic BS. In these days of the Internet and of staggeringly available information for free, a dedicated , person, team, company, country can produce things of quality. I do not dismiss the value of experience and of know how, however.

This said, subwoofers (Frequency range < 300 Hz) are easy to make: A good , sturdy, if possible non resonating box, a good driver and a powerful( 100 to 1000 Watts peak) amplifier in its passband, in that case from 0 Hz to 200 Hz. are all that are needed.
$500 CNC are not rare, massive production of chips, e.g. those kind of amps can be produced in the millions on one chip ( a bit of an hyperbole but ... everyone here got the point). Widely available DSP on a chip. With these, people with knowledge and dedication can produce an excellent subwoofer capable of supreme output at decent prices. I use el-cheapo Parts Express subwoofers, my total cash outlay for 3 ,(three) 15-inch subwoofers, miniDSP 2x4 , UMik-1, REW was $800, shipping included inside the US (3 sub for $600, miniDSP 2 x4-Umik-1 for $200). I am enjoying under 18 Hz at 104 dB at 3 meters LP, not max, mind you, what my fiancee patience was capable to bear during the tests..... I need to publish my REW results...

Subs in a room are pretty interesting. You would find cases of room and placement, that make a sub capable of a Max of only 40 Hz at 80 dB @ 1meter in anechoic , produce 20 Hz at 100 dB in that given room and sub placement at a 3 meters, listening position. Some (not me) call this "Room Gain" ... a misnomer.

Conclusion; With proper use of DSP both subwoofers would give you good results. I would suggest to the OP, to invest in 2 or 3 lesser subs, plus miniDSP + UMik-1 for the $1000 budget, a lot of (price is free) learning and testing and sweat and obtain better results, for certain than the lone Genelec subwoofer. Not opinion! Facts. This can be demonstrated.

 

[q3cpma]

Let's drop the nationalist and sometimes xenophobic BS. In these days of the Internet and of staggeringly available information for free, a dedicated , person, team, company, country can produce things of quality.

Let's drop the hippie kneejerk reaction too, I was just mentioning that because of the labour cost.

 

[FrantzM]

Let's drop the hippie kneejerk reaction too, I was just mentioning that because of the labour cost.

The value proposition cannot entertain the notion of national "labour cost". Performance for a given cash outlay at the point of consumption is the metric.

 

[q3cpma]

The value proposition cannot entertain the notion of national "labour cost". Performance for a given cash outlay at the point of consumption is the metric.

Well, it is more an explanation than an excuse for the price, though I do believe in doing everything from design to manufacture at the same place. Just don't whip out the modern "witch" words just because of a country mention; which is anything but nationalism, a word that has no absolute meaning in today's newspeak thus no use in a serious discussion.

 

[FrantzM]

Well, it is more an explanation than an excuse for the price, though I do believe in doing everything from design to manufacture at the same place. Just don't whip out the modern "witch" words just because of a country mention; which is anything but nationalism, a word that has no absolute meaning in today's newspeak thus no use in a serious discussion.

Fair enough.

 

[FeddyLost]

Usually studio subs from decent brands designed to be more sturdy and reliable and have better connectivity and sometimes multichannel bass management.
And, by the way, they have much less market than any non-premium HT equipment.
I don't know their actual quantity produced, but I'd expect at least 100 times difference.

 

[Promit]

Broadly speaking, the only major thing that is common to studio subs is that they have XLR inputs and outputs where HT subs generally do not. They’re usually going to try to be linear rather than emphasize output, but this is true of many HT subs as well. They also may have crossovers tailored to the mains they’re supposed to complement.

Some of the more sophisticated models might have features like servo control, but it’s not really that big a deal. No one would have any problem working with an SVS or Rythmik subwoofer in a studio setting. As usual, room treatment and room correction count for a lot.

 

[dasdoing]

And, by the way, they have much less market than any non-premium HT equipment.

that's the main factor in price diference

 

[radio3]

Hi

No experience with either the SVS and the Genelec.
Here I go.

Let's drop the nationalist and sometimes xenophobic BS. In these days of the Internet and of staggeringly available information for free, a dedicated , person, team, company, country can produce things of quality. I do not dismiss the value of experience and of know how, however.

This said, subwoofers (Frequency range < 300 Hz) are easy to make: A good , sturdy, if possible non resonating box, a good driver and a powerful( 100 to 1000 Watts peak) amplifier in its passband, in that case from 0 Hz to 200 Hz. are all that are needed.
$500 CNC are not rare, massive production of chips, e.g. those kind of amps can be produced in the millions on one chip ( a bit of an hyperbole but ... everyone here got the point). Widely available DSP on a chip. With these, people with knowledge and dedication can produce an excellent subwoofer capable of supreme output at decent prices. I use el-cheapo Parts Express subwoofers, my total cash outlay for 3 ,(three) 15-inch subwoofers, miniDSP 2x4 , UMik-1, REW was $800, shipping included inside the US (3 sub for $600, miniDSP 2 x4-Umik-1 for $200). I am enjoying under 18 Hz at 104 dB at 3 meters LP, not max, mind you, what my fiancee patience was capable to bear during the tests..... I need to publish my REW results...

Subs in a room are pretty interesting. You would find cases of room and placement, that make a sub capable of a Max of only 40 Hz at 80 dB @ 1meter in anechoic , produce 20 Hz at 100 dB in that given room and sub placement at a 3 meters, listening position. Some (not me) call this "Room Gain" ... a misnomer.

Conclusion; With proper use of DSP both subwoofers would give you good results. I would suggest to the OP, to invest in 2 or 3 lesser subs, plus miniDSP + UMik-1 for the $1000 budget, a lot of (price is free) learning and testing and sweat and obtain better results, for certain than the lone Genelec subwoofer. Not opinion! Facts. This can be demonstrated.

You are talking Hz and SPL but aren’t transient response and sound quality the larger part of the equation? Facts are good, but then you have to look at the most important ones at least, rather than just a small subset of them. Also you start post with accusations of immoral behavior but I think people were basically just saying that some of the electronics are manufactured in places with objectively better quality control history. I think it would be better if we resist temptation to moralize.

 

[LearningToSmile]

Depending on the equipment the user already owns and intended use case, price difference can be a little less drastic - for me I want to add a subwoofer to a pair of active studio monitors that are connected to a PC via a stereo DAC.

I have a choice of either

• buying a more expensive studio subwoofer, letting it take care of the crossover
• buying a cheaper HT/stereo subwoofer, AND buy some sort of external crossover/bass management solution

The first option is very appealing for me due to simplicity, but if my speakers were connected via a receiver that already had subwoofer out, or if I wasn't connecting to a PC that I can apply my EQ with, and needed to get an external DSP solution the second option would make more sense.

Though I gotta say, even though I like the first option more, the price/performance for the kind of low end extension I would like is so drastic in my price range, that I probably will end up going with number two anyway. It's also compounded by the fact that in my country I really can't get any used/closeout studio subwoofers to save money, whereas there are some interesting options for older HT subwoofers available.

 

[dasdoing]

I have a choice of either

• buying a more expensive studio subwoofer, letting it take care of the crossover
• buying a cheaper HT/stereo subwoofer, AND buy some sort of external crossover/bass management solution

or you use a software crossover. not sure if audiophile DACs have more then 2 outputs though; I always used pro-DACs

 

[FrantzM]

You are talking Hz and SPL but aren’t transient response and sound quality the larger part of the equation? Facts are good, but then you have to look at the most important ones at least, rather than just a small subset of them. Also you start post with accusations of immoral behavior but I think people were basically just saying that some of the electronics are manufactured in places with objectively better quality control history. I think it would be better if we resist temptation to moralize.

Transient response is also a matter of SPL and Hz.. Multiple subwoofers have been proven to work better than one, in most cases.
Didn't say it was "immoral", your terms. I got it squared off once the poster explained his context. I agree with him on the context. Mine remains valid unless proven, with facts, of the contrary.
" objectively better quality control history " is a slippery slope...
We're OT and can bring the discussion, if you want to a different thread, not audio related.
Peace

 

[q3cpma]

By the way, anyone knows other subs than the SVS 4000 series than can completely replace a studio subwoofer (balanced line level in/out and active crossover)?

 

[FrantzM]

By the way, anyone knows other subs than the SVS 4000 series than can completely replace a studio subwoofer (balanced line level in/out and active crossover)?

I do not know if reference to another forum discussion is accepted, I would have referenced a link to this discussion, in Audioholics that has some answers.
From that discussion: SVS, Revel, Velodyne.

One interesting choice is the JBL LSR310S 10 inch Powered Studio Subwoofer.. It has an internal crossover, balanced inputs and outputs. It cost $400... I have no experience with it.

P.S. Ryhtmik has that as an option. It replaces the PEQ board though or so I read

 

[LearningToSmile]

One interesting choice is the JBL LSR310S 10 inch Powered Studio Subwoofer.. It has an internal crossover, balanced inputs and outputs. It cost $400... I have no experience with it.

It's pretty well regarded for what it is(particularly since it goes on sale sometimes for $300) but listed spec is 28Hz extension, most likely -10dB. I have not seen specific measurements(if anyone has them, please do share), but personally I'd like my subwoofer to go lower.

or you use a software crossover. not sure if audiophile DACs have more then 2 outputs though; I always used pro-DACs

My DAC has a set of XLR outputs and a set of RCA outputs, but as far as I can tell there's no way to address them separately, so they just output the same signal.

 

[FrantzM]

It's pretty well regarded for what it is(particularly since it goes on sale sometimes for $300) but listed spec is 28Hz extension, most likely -10dB. I have not seen specific measurements(if anyone has them, please do share), but personally I'd like my subwoofer to go lower.

,snip> .

I am with you and was about to post that. Not the best solution, IMO.