We all hear differently, but that also applies to the original sound.
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Stereophile Reviews New Klipsch Forte, Klipschorn
- Thread starter watchnerd
- Start date
We all hear differently, but that also applies to the original sound.
If you have ketchup with everything, you will never taste anything but ketchup. But if you like it, why not..?
OP
watchnerd
Grand Contributor
- Thread Starter
- #85
While I didn't read anything I thought was untrue, I think the concerns are overblown for home use:
"anyone want to guess which speaker will last longer before the voicecoil melts?"
I don't think I've ever heard of anyone melting a woofer voicecoil in a domestic setting.
"Let's say that we have a requirement for a continuous average SPL of 115dB at 1 metre. Such a system might be used in a movie theatre (for example),"
Well, yes, if I lived in a movie theater this makes sense, but what non-billionaire domestic user needs 115 dB at 1 m?
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Interesting "Dope from Hope". An ironical double entendre, for sure. PK had a sense of humor along with his inability to stomach what he considered nonsense. In any case, around the mid '70s it seems everyone was worked up over Matti Otala's transient intermodulation distortion idea. Paul discusses it in his news letters. I recall reading a couple of projects in Audio magazine from Marshall Leach about building a "low TIM" amplifier. And this was before there were really any standards for measuring TIM.
However all that was back then, you don't hear much about TIM, anymore. I'm not an amp designer, so I'm at the periphery. But I'm asking anyone here who cares to respond, and who knows about modern-day amplifier design, whether TIM is anything anyone is actively working out?
TIM turned out to be one special case of SID (slew-rate induced distortion). Once people understood feedback theory and the role of slew rate, it became a non-issue.
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As an owner of La Scala II speakers, I can comment about the pluses and minunses. Sound is not what I want to comment on. Anyone interested will have their own opinions. I'd like to mention the fit and finish. Klipsch does not use a solid wood--I doubt anyone does that, anymore. But rather a thin glued on veneer over something pressed. It almost has a 'plasticky' kind of look and feel, up close. So it is not 'fine furniture' grade, regardless of what you might read. That said, from a distance it looks very refined. Whether a glued on veneer strip will last is anyone's guess. Glue has a habit of ungluing.
I would never advise anyone to spend the price of these unless they really think it through. A home audition would be necessary, but that is kind of impractical. These are not easy to move around, and placement is not a foolproof thing. They are a lot bigger in person than they look in pictures, and they look big in pics.
One thing I will say about the sound. For certain types of music I've never heard anything that matches them. Maybe another horn type speaker, but I've not heard the more expensive horns. Klipsch do not sound like a box, or an electrostatic. Some would say the LF is deficient. Others might call it 'funny'. It does not sound like a box woofer, and experimenting with a subwoofer may be beneficial. However, with my Benchmark amplifier I can play louder and clearer than I want, with no fatigue.
So what's the bottom line? What you really need, desire and want are several listening rooms. One with Quad electrostatics. Another with PK speakers. Another with something like the Revel line, or B&Ws, or whatever else strikes your aural fancy.
I would never advise anyone to spend the price of these unless they really think it through. A home audition would be necessary, but that is kind of impractical. These are not easy to move around, and placement is not a foolproof thing. They are a lot bigger in person than they look in pictures, and they look big in pics.
One thing I will say about the sound. For certain types of music I've never heard anything that matches them. Maybe another horn type speaker, but I've not heard the more expensive horns. Klipsch do not sound like a box, or an electrostatic. Some would say the LF is deficient. Others might call it 'funny'. It does not sound like a box woofer, and experimenting with a subwoofer may be beneficial. However, with my Benchmark amplifier I can play louder and clearer than I want, with no fatigue.
So what's the bottom line? What you really need, desire and want are several listening rooms. One with Quad electrostatics. Another with PK speakers. Another with something like the Revel line, or B&Ws, or whatever else strikes your aural fancy.
"So what's the bottom line? What you really need, desire and want are several listening rooms. "
This is true and actually quite easy to achieve. Many of us live in family houses or large apartments. As life goes by, hifi apparel tends to accumulate as passion and impatience drive us to buy something "better". Just don't throw away the old garbage!
I have 3 working systems in threee rooms at home and one more at summer cabin. Main system has diy dipole 4-ways as stereo/mains and bookshelf monitors to make it 5.0. HT room system has diy coaxial monitors as L/C/R and two-way monitors on rear, and a big diy subwoofer. Third set has diy bookshelf 2-ways. Summer cabin has old Sonab omnipole stereo speakers and a 12V car radio as source! Then add the three diy stereo speaker sets that I have made/given for my kids, so far!
This is true and actually quite easy to achieve. Many of us live in family houses or large apartments. As life goes by, hifi apparel tends to accumulate as passion and impatience drive us to buy something "better". Just don't throw away the old garbage!
I have 3 working systems in threee rooms at home and one more at summer cabin. Main system has diy dipole 4-ways as stereo/mains and bookshelf monitors to make it 5.0. HT room system has diy coaxial monitors as L/C/R and two-way monitors on rear, and a big diy subwoofer. Third set has diy bookshelf 2-ways. Summer cabin has old Sonab omnipole stereo speakers and a 12V car radio as source! Then add the three diy stereo speaker sets that I have made/given for my kids, so far!
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Same here, but 4 rooms
. Living room with the main system (small active 3-way studio monitors with a sub), wifes room with TV and small stereo system (JBL LSR2325, no sub - wife hates deep bass), my work room (2 very small active studio monitors, no sub[1]), bath room (old car radio in a box with a DIY power supply and 2 small passive DIY speakers). My inherited Mackie HR824 studio monitors are currently used in the workers council office for Webex - total overkill for sure, but we never had such a good speech intelligibility.[1] Actually there is a small KEF sub in my workroom but currently it's connected to the E-drum while the PA sub is on travel. I got the KEF sub for a pizza - a former colleague gave it ot me because it was defect and I offered an invitation to a pizza if I could fix it. With the help of the local importer (they mailed me the schematics for free!) I localized a broken opamp and after replacing it the sub worked again.
graz_lag
Major Contributor
Well there was the time my Phase Linear 700B went insane and took out a K-33 woofer in my La Scala's.
PL 700B's were kind of known for being a little schizophrenic.
She made one horrendous noise before all went quiet.
OP
watchnerd
Grand Contributor
- Thread Starter
- #93
Well there was the time my Phase Linear 700B went insane and took out a K-33 woofer in my La Scala's.
PL 700B's were kind of known for being a little schizophrenic.
She made one horrendous noise before all went quiet.
I'm curious, did it melt it or did it blow out the suspension?
I really don't know for sure, it just didn't make any sound at all any more.
A good story about that blow-up I may have told already, but hey I'm old.
In any case I was without music for a few months not having the money to repair both the speakers and the amp.
I finally decided to bite the bullet and ordered the speaker parts and looked for someone to repair the amp.
That Phase Linear was pretty old at the time 5+ years for sure and had lots of hours on it has it had been a store demo when I bought it,
PL had already been sold twice I think and was then owned by Jensen Corp. I called around and found out Jensen had a authorized repair shop about 5 minutes from my house. I left it there saying "just fix it and please replace the burned out lamps above the big VU meters".
About 3 weeks later a man called and said your amp is ready,. I didn't even ask how much, just grabbed my wallet and credit cards and headed over there. Counterman brought the amp out of the back room and got my bill, as he set the bill on the counter I asked "how much?" He looked the the paper and said "no charge". I about crapped my pants, I took the paper from him and looked at the bottom of it and sure enough it was marked NC in the Total line.
They had replaced a bunch of power transistors and other components, plus also soldered in all 8 tiny new lamps for the meters and more. I have no idea why the Gods decided to look down on me that day but I just said "thank you very much" , picked up my amp and went home.
That was a very good day.
In any case I was without music for a few months not having the money to repair both the speakers and the amp.
I finally decided to bite the bullet and ordered the speaker parts and looked for someone to repair the amp.
That Phase Linear was pretty old at the time 5+ years for sure and had lots of hours on it has it had been a store demo when I bought it,
PL had already been sold twice I think and was then owned by Jensen Corp. I called around and found out Jensen had a authorized repair shop about 5 minutes from my house. I left it there saying "just fix it and please replace the burned out lamps above the big VU meters".
About 3 weeks later a man called and said your amp is ready,. I didn't even ask how much, just grabbed my wallet and credit cards and headed over there. Counterman brought the amp out of the back room and got my bill, as he set the bill on the counter I asked "how much?" He looked the the paper and said "no charge". I about crapped my pants, I took the paper from him and looked at the bottom of it and sure enough it was marked NC in the Total line.
They had replaced a bunch of power transistors and other components, plus also soldered in all 8 tiny new lamps for the meters and more. I have no idea why the Gods decided to look down on me that day but I just said "thank you very much" , picked up my amp and went home.
That was a very good day.
GrimSurfer
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I really don't know for sure, it just didn't make any sound at all any more.
Sounds like a fried voice coil. A speaker with blown suspension will normally make some kind of sound. Not good sound, but audible, unless it is stuck on a shorting ring.
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Do you think a Phase Linear might have been a little much, in the context of a La Scala? Whew! In one of the Dopes from Hope Paul writes (doing this from memory so it might not be exact) 100 watts/ch is probably all anyone would need with his speaker designs, and that's a lot. He advised to always fuse the speaker with high power amplifiers. I think this particular item was written around the time Bob was selling his big amps, and high power was becoming really popular. Of course if an amp blows up, anything downstream could be vunerable, regardless of the amp's RMS power.Well there was the time my Phase Linear 700B went insane and took out a K-33 woofer in my La Scala's.
PL 700B's were kind of known for being a little schizophrenic.
She made one horrendous noise before all went quiet.
Wellllllllllll, I don't know, what do you think? LOL
I bought those speakers and amp in 1979 and at the time I thought amplifier power was like horse power, you can never have too much.
Around 1990 I sold that amp and replaced it with some 100 watt VTL monoblock tube amps, just perfect for them.
A few more years down the road I added a pair of 7' tall HSU subwoofers and a pair of NAD 2400THX amps running as bridged monoblocks. Worked out great, it's hard to match subs to LaScala's, you need subs that can really move some air.
He measured it in Art's driveway, freespace.To the efficiency point, a quote from the Art Dudley Klipschorn review:
"In the years since the Klipschorn's debut, loudspeaker technology has progressed in many ways. Speakers that sound timbrally neutral and uncolored are much more common today, as are speakers with consistent and effective dispersion across their operating range. Thanks to the pioneering work of people like Jon Dahlquist, Jim Thiel, Richard Vandersteen, and John Fuselier (footnote 2), physical time alignment of drivers in a dynamic loudspeaker system is virtually a given these days, and the problem of baffle edge diffraction has been identified and smacked upside the head. The result is a great selection of loudspeakers that offer apparently flat frequency response, superb stereo imaging, and great airiness and transparency.
And what did we give up to gain such easy access to all those things? Natural-sounding dynamics. Impact. Pluck. Snap. Body—especially body. And soul."
Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/content/klipsch-klipschorn-ak6-loudspeaker-page-2#p8muzdMpqxEJ3YdK.99
But then you have graphs like this:
Klipsch measured it 1/8 space in their anechoic chamber in accordance with AES standards. I have heard it, it's.the same great horn-loaded bass that is like no other, and you can tell that is the tweeter that has to keep up with the woofer. The bass is realistic, low distortion.
The new tractrix tweeter and Neo driver are a definite high end improvement.