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Stereophile Reviews New Klipsch Forte, Klipschorn
- Thread starter watchnerd
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Indeed, that is due to the axial location of the drivers.
One could argue that it doesn't matter, sound doesn't need phase accuracy, which may or may not be true, I certainly couldn't hear phase changes which looked hugely different in square waves on a 'scope when I tried it 40 years ago.
One could equally argue that it, and the sensitivity mismatches should be addressed by the crossover.
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Just who's on first?: The earliest commercial designs I recall that discussed 'time alignment' were from the erstwhile Rectilinear company. I'm not saying Rectilinear was the first, but they are the first I recall. The company was a who's who of designers: James Bongiorno, Jon Dahlquist, and Richard Shahinian were present at one time or another. [Bongiorno would 'fondly' recall how the company owner was a cheating criminal who never paid him for his work.]
In 1969-70 (several years before the introduction of the DQ-10) Rectilinear came out with their model Xa, which was supposed to deal with 'time delay' distortion. That speaker was not 'time aligned' based on physical geometry, but rather used electro-mechanics. The woofer came in at 100Hz, with the HF taking over at 8KHz, leaving six octaves handled by the 5 inch mid-cone. Thus, mid-range frequencies were 'acoustically isolated' in one driver, making 'time delay' across the entire system more negligible (and less noticable in the mid range, where, as Paul Klipsch always said, is 'where we live'.). A 'minimal phase' crossover network was designed along with special driver materials said to assist in the reduction of Doppler and IM distortion due to spurious cone excursions.
The speaker was nominal 4 ohms, and low sensitivity, requiring a minimum of 35-40 watts RMS (remember, this was a time when the 'average' receiver might not have that much power). So they were essentially selling a smallish 'bookshelf' speaker that needed something like the then very expensive Crown D-150 in order to drive it to realistic levels. Not the best recipe for commercial success.
orangejello
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Thanks for posting that quote. I saw the name John Fuselier and was startled. I never hear him mentioned in most audio circles. But he was a legend to me. I first heard of him in the late eighties. I was reading a review of his 3.8D speakers in Audio magazine. The reviewer was Dick Clark, I think. I had never read such an unequivocal review. He ended it with the statement that these were the finest speakers that he had ever had the privilege of listening to. They were way too expensive for me at the time - $2500. They were a time aligned three-way design with relatively steep crossovers. The 3 was for three-way. The 8 was the 8 inch woofer. The D served a dual purpose - all of the drivers were (D)ynaudio and the midrange was a 2 inch (d)ome. Here is a link to a pair that just sold on USAudio Mart: https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649376442-fuselier-38d-speakers-in-walnut/images/1631120/
I found a pair of Fuselier Fives in the classified adds in Audio magazine several months later for around $800. They were the precursors to the a 3.8D and were similar - albeit floorstanding and sporting a very complex cabinet design. They had three Vifa tweeters which was John’s attempt to solve the dispersion problem. They had the Dynaudio 2 inch dome midrange and a Vifa 8 inch woofer - five drivers altogether.
The signature of John’s work was the astounding imaging. I had never heard speakers so completely disappear, nor such precise location of instruments. I listened to all the heavy hitters back then, Thiel, Kef, Celestion, Proac etc. Nothing came close in that regard. The dome was fast, so they had the “pluck” that horns give you -almost. After hearing these speakers the Klipsh speakers were a complete non-starter. They don’t image at all. The have a huge, diffuse, colored sound. Their strengths are speed and efficiency. But after hearing the accuracy of the Fusiliers, the positive aspects of the Klipschorns became irrelevant to me. I have friends that have spent years of their time tweeting those speakers. So I understand the draw. But, frankly, I hated listening to them.
John and Paul Klipsch were apparently good friends. Although I never met him, I learned a lot about John from hours of phono conversations with Fat Julián Scharfman who owned an audio store in Roswell Georgia. He sold John’s speakers and was his friend and advocate. John was an EE and a fighter pilot who later flew commercially for Eastern. He was apparently humble, kind, and gentlemanly. He had extraordinary listening skills and was as technically solid as one can be. Julian told me about a project that John worked on that involved 8 foot horns. Apparently Paul had a chance to listen to these. But John never developed them. I liked his aesthetic and it set a standard for me in terms of what I look for in speakers.
John passed away in 2018. RIP John.
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Well said. I've designed and built many speakers over the years and I always strive for 'realistic', but comparing two of my most recent designs has me questioning exactly what that is. Unless you are in the recording session, 'realistic' is just an approximation of your imagination. Subtle changes to my crossovers, drivers, etc. are changes to preference rather than accuracy since I have no real reference to reality.
However, I'm thinking my next tests will involve recording my baby grand and playing back. Now only if I can get Radiohead to lay down some tracks in my living room.
graz_lag
Major Contributor
That's going to be fun!
Pianos have such tonal complexity and character that is gonna be difficult to get these in real when you play them back.
My Yamaha Z7 AV receiver's seller convinced me with the simple claim that amplifiers from Yamaha reproduce the natural sound of the company pianos.
(I knew he was BS me but I liked the simplicity of that claim.)
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Yamaha once used the old 'if it's good enough for your ears, it's good enough for our speakers' argument. Is your AV receiver shaped like a piano, too?
graz_lag
Major Contributor
Yamaha once used the old 'if it's good enough for your ears, it's good enough for our speakers' argument. Is your AV receiver shaped like a piano, too?
View attachment 34353
These Ads of the seventies or so, were very nice & funny indeed. With the right content of humor, never offensive or B-S-ing as we see today.
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These Ads of the seventies or so, were very nice & funny indeed. With the right content of humor, never offensive or B-S-ing as we see today.
Many of them were rather sexist.
graz_lag
Major Contributor
You're right, that was the case for all the other Ads in the seventies, cars, appliances and so on ...
Although this one was in the nineties, some of the sexist cut was still there ...
graz_lag
Major Contributor
Alternatively, today's tendency to ban the so-called harmful gender stereotypes produces the following type of Ads ...
I do not know, are we completely losing the common sense of things ?
I do not know, are we completely losing the common sense of things ?
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Yeah...I learned to iron in the military--inspections and all. Everyone in the barracks shared a couple of irons. Years later, once my wife found out I had specialized Army training, she pulled rank on me and it became my
I assume you are being ironic?
Huh?
Actually it does. Both JA and Hi-Fi news had to alter their test software, "to get close".one of them said. "Close" to what?
Travis
Apparently the Heresy IV may also be announced late October. It will become ported: https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/186023-heresy-iv/
I've never owned Heresy speakers, but I thought its sealed design was part of the charm.
It will also apparently be $3000/pair. From what I can gather, the Heresy III cost $1500/pair new about 5 years ago and has risen to $2600/pair today. I think the whole Heritage line has doubled in price over the last five years. Oh well.
I've never owned Heresy speakers, but I thought its sealed design was part of the charm.
It will also apparently be $3000/pair.
From what I can gather, the Heresy III cost $1500/pair new about 5 years ago and has risen to $2600/pair today. I think the whole Heritage line has doubled in price over the last five years. Oh well.
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When Dr. Heyser reviewed the Klipschorn in 1986 the price was $1500.00. Inflato-Calculator translates this to $3500.00/current. The new K-Horn runs $7500.00 ea. Of course, the new speaker is not exactly the same as the old.Apparently the Heresy IV may also be announced late October. It will become ported: https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/186023-heresy-iv/
I've never owned Heresy speakers, but I thought its sealed design was part of the charm.
It will also apparently be $3000/pair.
Klipsch Heritage are labor intensive to build. K-horn and the LaScala are not staple/glue together rectangles. Maybe labor costs have more than doubled.
At 3K/pair, the new Heresy still comes in at under the JBL L100 classic, which is 4/pair, and made in Malaysia, I believe. L100 would seem to be a natural competitor to the Heresy, so for that reason the price could be justified and seen as a good deal--made in USA and all that.
Yeah I won't pretend to know anything of their economics. To me it's a miracle when any business manages to function for any period of time, let alone survive for decades, so...
Depending on how stable the prices had been up until 5ish years ago, maybe it finally hit the breaking point. I'm just wondering how far it goes, if $3000/pair is the ultimate near term goal for the Heresy line or if it will continue to rapidly climb until $4000/pair over the next year or two, or whatever. Obviously they can charge whatever they think is appropriate, but the mental challenge of placing an order for a new pair of these once you realize how much less you could've paid in the not so distant past, assuming it's largely the same speaker (especially when you're comparing Heresy III then to Heresy III now)... that's a bummer. Of course, nobody is forcing anyone to buy them new I suppose.
HiFi News measured the distortion of the La Scala in the June issue.
At 90 dB it was 0.1% at 100Hz, 0.2% at 1kHz and 0.2% at 10kHz.
The waterfall was as slow and full of resonances as is typical of horns and the tweeter level was 5dB above the mid unit though...
To put this in perspective the Goldenear Triton Reference in the same issue had a lovely waterfall but a smiley FR and 0.3%/0.7%/0.1% and the Focal Kanta bookshelf speaker fair waterfall, even FR (though peak above 20kHz) and 0.9%/0.2%/0.1%
The expensive Wilson Tune-tot in the November issue last year was inefficient, uneven frequency response, slow waterfall and 1.1%/0.7%/0.3% and got a rave review...
The Wilson Alexia 2, which costs more than twice as much as my new car here also has a slow waterfall and 0.2%/0.8%/0.4% so the mid and treble are probably quite audibly coloured even though the bass is pretty good.
I always love speaker measurements, most other stuff is to all intents and purposes perfect but the speaker measurements tell a story
Indeed.
I assume HiFi news measured THD rather than the usually more serious IM (often called "modulation distortion" in speakers, and IM in amps, sounding bit different, and arising from different causes, but both contributing intermodulation prodicts).
Klipsch used to publish "Total Modulation Distortion" (for a fairly modern, 2004, analytical treatment of modulation distortion in loudspeakers, see https://www.stereophile.com/reference/1104red/index.html. The conclusion is that Modulation Distortion --"Doppler distortion" cam matter, can be audible and serious. "Distortion of the flute was gross at 10mm peak diaphragm displacement and not in the least bit euphonic. On the contrary, Doppler made the sound as harsh as you might expect of a distortion mechanism that introduces intermodulation products. At 3.16mm peak displacement (below Fryer's suggested detectability threshold) the distortion level was obviously lower but still clearly audible; and even at 1mm it could still be heard affecting the flute's timbre and adding 'edge' ... Having done the listening, I side with Moir and Klipsch more than with Fryer, Allison, and Villchur on this issue ... from the Doppler perspective, having a crossover for the bass driver at 400Hz or 500Hz is, unquestionably, better."). In the '90s, Klipsch depicted their popular floor standing, 3 way, Cornwall with direct radiator bass as having 3 times the modulation distortion of the Klipschorn, at 10 dB lower SPL. They said the Klipschorn had 1% Total Modulation Distortion at 100 dB, while the Cornwall had 3% Total Modulatiion Distortion at 90 dB. [The Cornwall has undergone several changes since the '90s, but it still has direct radiator bass, and uses the same bass driver. The major change in the Klipschorn is a new tweeter (above 4.5K), and some crossover changes.]
I'd say it's still worthwhile because:
1) Apparently, modulation distortion (see my post, above) goes down as efficiency (sensitivity) goes up, probably as a result of bass generation being possible with a maximum woofer cone excursion of less than 1/16" (1.57mm) with bass horns larger than the La Scala.
and
2) To get the 117 dB instantaneous peaks (1/4 second leading edge, but typical continuous level for "loud" would be in the 90s) per speaker with my 101dB/2.83v/1m Klipschorns at 150 watts, I would need about 2,000 watts with a 90dB/2.83v/1m "typical" speaker, in other words, two of these 3 piece monoblocks at only $81,000 for the 6 required units.
What horns are bigger than the La Scala, and, for some ears, better? For Klipsch there would be the Jubilee
and the Klipschorn AK6
They used different sizes and complements of drivers:
At frequencies that require more than the 1/16" (1.57mm) excursion in a good horn woofer, or at the F3, one can crossover to a even larger horn subwoofer, perhaps built into the basement. In the
case pictured, the listening position is in the room above the green rectangle shown.
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