step response is a important part to show speed of speaker that is good enough for ITD. See measures

[bennybbbx]

If the left and right speakers (assuming a 2 channel reproduction) have the same time delay characteristics, why will the ITD be different?

because they need play diffrent frequency

And why will the left and right speakers play different frequencies if they are reproducing the same instrument, even if the sound is time and/or amplitude panned?

see this record of a passing car.

Stereophonic sound - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

but this happen also in music myabe electronic reverb that on the left microphone a frequency reach 400 µsec earlier.

also see double track. there is play the guitar 2 times the same and then pan 1 guitar to lfull eft 1 guitar to full right. it should be clear that the pick of both guitars are not exact at same time. so speakers play diffrence frequency

 

[markus]

because they need play diffrent frequency

Both speakers play whatever the signal is and they temporally distort that signal in the very same way. So no change in ITD.

see this record of a passing car.

Stereophonic sound - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

but this happen also in music myabe electronic reverb that on the left microphone a frequency reach 400 µsec earlier.

also see double track. there is play the guitar 2 times the same and then pan 1 guitar to lfull eft 1 guitar to full right. it should be clear that the pick of both guitars are not exact at same time. so speakers play diffrence frequency

Again you're just demonstrating that you don't understand what you're looking at when presented with a complex waveform.

 

[NTK]

because they need play diffrent frequency



see this record of a passing car.

Stereophonic sound - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

but this happen also in music myabe electronic reverb that on the left microphone a frequency reach 400 µsec earlier.

also see double track. there is play the guitar 2 times the same and then pan 1 guitar to lfull eft 1 guitar to full right. it should be clear that the pick of both guitars are not exact at same time. so speakers play diffrence frequency

Why? If they are different frequencies, they must come from different sources.

 

[bennybbbx]

Which part of "the time delay characteristics between speakers is fixed" don't you understand?

have you see this stereo wave picture with the passing car ?. Wy is it not clear, that the delay charakteristic is not fixed when compare diffrent frequency. see group delay. and speaker need at same time play diffrent frequency. on teh left speaker the car is not hear when on right speaker car is hear. it is a short time.

 

[bennybbbx]

Why? If they are different frequencies, they must come from different sources.

when in a choir on right side a man sing and on left side a woman. then left microphone get earlier the sound of the woman. and the right speaker get earlier the sound of the man. see here how microphones are placed https://www.sweetwater.com/insync/how-to-mic-choir/

they are mixed to left and right but should be clear left and right speakers play diffrent frequency and levels in the mix

 

[markus]

have you see this stereo wave picture with the passing car ?. Wy is it not clear, that the delay charakteristic is not fixed when compare diffrent frequency. see group delay. and speaker need at same time play diffrent frequency. on teh left speaker the car is not hear when on right speaker car is hear. it is a short time.

When looking at the waveform all I can say is that the car likely passes from right to left if the lower track is the right channel. If you would want to make a temporal assessment of the waveform content you would need to decompose it first, just like the basilar membrane in your ear does.

But that's completely irrelevant as the temporal characteristics between the speakers are fixed. So why are you now talking about the input signal changing?

 

[markus]

when in a choir on right side a man sing and on left side a woman. then left microphone get earlier the sound of the woman. and the right speaker get earlier the sound of the man. see here how microphones are placed https://www.sweetwater.com/insync/how-to-mic-choir/

they are mixed to left and right but should be clear left and right speakers play diffrent frequency and levels in the mix

Irrelevant. We were talking about how the speaker changes temporal characteristics in the input signal. We've established (?) that the temporal distortion of a speaker is fixed so any signal is changed the very same way regardless whether the signal is a choir, a car, ...

 

[bennybbbx]

Irrelevant. We were talking about how the speaker changes temporal characteristics in the input signal. We've established (?) that it's fixed so any signal is changed the same way regardless what the signal is a choir, a car, ...

did you not notice that the kali have lots changes in group delay ?. and when there are lots changes in group delay because left speaker play man voice at lower frequency and right speaker girl voice at higher frequency then you need look which groupdelay happen at this frequency. and this should be 10 µsec simular for optimal ITD

 

[NTK]

when in a choir on right side a man sing and on left side a woman. then left microphone get earlier the sound of the woman. and the right speaker get earlier the sound of the man. see here how microphones are placed https://www.sweetwater.com/insync/how-to-mic-choir/

they are mixed to left and right but should be clear left and right speakers play diffrent frequency and levels in the mix

Are you saying the addition of the woman singing affects the perceived location of the man singing? If it is the case, then this is the results of a nonlinear process as it contradicts superposition. Looking only at impulse/step/frequency/phase response will not tell you much about a nonlinear process.

 

[markus]

did you not notice that the kali have lots changes in group delay ?. and when there are lots changes in group delay because left speaker play man voice at lower frequency and right speaker girl voice at higher frequency then you need look which groupdelay happen at this frequency. and this should be 10 µsec simular for optimal ITD

The group delay does not change with input signal. It is fixed and inherent to the specific speaker. Ergo it can't change ITD.

 

[bennybbbx]

The group delay does not change with input signal. It is fixed and inherent to the speaker. Ergo it can't change ITD.

when a speaker have a group delay at 500 hz(period time 2000 µmicroseconds) of 300µsec and a group delay at 1 khz(period time 1000 µsec) of 350 µsec then when in a record next peak is play at 2000 µsec on left speaker next peak is play at 2000 µsec + 300 µsec. 2300 µsec. when need play on right speaker the next peak at 1000 µsec then it delay it with 350 µmsec result is 1350 µmsec. which mean a phase error of 50 microseconds between the left and right speaker thats not good for ITD:

or just use a cyclic wavaform 500 hz on left speaker 1000 hz on right speaker and think what happen when group delay is diffrent at 500 hz and 1000 hz

Are you saying the addition of the woman singing affects the perceived location of the man singing? If it is the case, then this is the results of a nonlinear process as it contradicts superposition. Looking only at impulse/step/frequency/phase response will not tell you much about a nonlinear process.

i mean first when the woman sing the transient and voice reach the microphone near to her earlier. have you see the page i link and hear the audio examples ?. You can see in image that the microphones are 1 or more meter distance. speed of sound is 3 ms /meter. so this mean the microphone near the woman record the higher voice of the woman 3 ms earlier. so the microphone near the woman record this higher freq only and the other not. additional happen with the room reverb. the walls near the microphone reflect the woman voice erlier. and so should the speaker play too. for more see also the text above to markus

 

[gnarly]

I mean on this speaker tests here

in compare to pages that show step responses

on which can you see the delay of tweeter and woofer more easy ?.

on this test

I didn't address the "tests" here, because everyone has pointed out time and again how flawed they are.

I went for the invalidity of step response itself for timing determination...hoping you could maybe see that.

I guess not that's not in the cards either.....i tried .... good luck, methinks thou dost truly need it

 

[bennybbbx]

I didn't address the "tests" here, because everyone has pointed out time and again how flawed they are.

I went for the invalidity of step response itself for timing determination...hoping you could maybe see that.

Yes i know. group delay is better, but step responses are show more often as group delays. see here on this known big magazine. they test mostly expensive hifi speakers. and this step response look fast and good, and the speaker reach very low frequency

Stereo: Produkt

www.stereo.de

 

[markus]

when a speaker have a group delay at 500 hz(period time 2000 µmicroseconds) of 300µsec and a group delay at 1 khz(period time 1000 µsec) of 350 µsec then when in a record next peak is play at 2000 µsec on left speaker next peak is play at 2000 µsec + 300 µsec. 2300 µsec. when need play on right speaker the next peak at 1000 µsec then it delay it with 350 µmsec result is 1350 µmsec. which mean a phase error of 50 microseconds between the left and right speaker thats not good for ITD:

or just use a cyclic wavaform 500 hz on left speaker 1000 hz on right speaker and think what happen when group delay is diffrent at 500 hz and 1000 hz

Doesn't matter at all. The frequency-dependent delay introduced by the speaker at each frequency is always the same so the signal going to the right and left speaker is always changed the same way. Any ITD that was present between the speaker input signals will still be present when it comes out of the speaker.

 

[NTK]

i mean first when the woman sing the transient and voice reach the microphone near to her earlier. have you see the page i link and hear the audio examples ?. You can see in image that the microphones are 1 or more meter distance. speed of sound is 3 ms /meter. so this mean the microphone near the woman record the higher voice of the woman 3 ms earlier. so the microphone near the woman record this higher freq only and the other not. additional happen with the room reverb. the walls near the microphone reflect the woman voice erlier. and so should the speaker play too. for more see also the text above to markus

No. That means the signal the further mic recorded is 3 ms delayed vs the closer mic. Why would the further mic not record the higher frequencies?

 

[bennybbbx]

Doesn't matter at all. The frequency-dependent delay introduced by the speaker at each frequency is always the same so the signal going to the right and left speaker is always changed the same way.

you still want say left and right speaker play always the same frequencies ?. when left and right speakers play a mono signal only then this is true.
but who hear mono with stereo speakers.

 

[markus]

you still want say left and right speaker play always the same frequencies ?. when left and right speakers play a mono signal only then this is true.
but who hear mono with stereo speakers.

No, I've said that the delay at each frequency is always the same. Hence the ITD in the signal going to the speaker is fully preserved even when it goes through the frequency-dependent delay inherent to the speaker.

 

[bennybbbx]

No. That means the signal the further mic recorded is 3 ms delayed vs the closer mic. Why would the further mic not record the higher frequencies?

think about this timing. girl sing thats time 0 at time 30ms voice reach closer microphone . at time 33ms girl voice reach further microphone

which microphone record girl voice at 31 ms. it is clear much diffrence, so left and right speaker play diffrent frequency

 

[bennybbbx]

No, I've said that the delay at each frequency is always the same. Hence the ITD in the signal going to the speaker is fully preserved even when it goes through the frequency-dependent delay inherent to the speaker.

see groupdelay plots from speakers or headphones. the delay at frequency is diffrent. the speaker need some time to reach the level, need brake and need speed up in other direction. this give a input lag or shown in group delay.

 

[NTK]

think about this timing. girl sing thats time 0 at time 30ms voice reach closer microphone . at time 33ms girl voice reach further microphone

which microphone record girl voice at 31 ms. it is clear much diffrence.

??? The difference is there is a time delay and tiny amplitude difference between the signals picked up by the 2 mics. No difference in the frequency composition.