Starting From Scratch

[Webninja]

If it’s not too late, any in wall wiring might be good to do. More for HT, but I’d want as little XLR/speaker cables visible.

For subs, the only downside to ported is the size. I’ve got 3 Monoprice ported subs, but they are chunky.

 

[Muddywaters]

Sorry to hear of your misfortune. Perhaps you will have a better setup in the end. If it were me, I would put down porcelain wood plank tile or real hardwood planks. You can always add a throw rug to tame the highs. Much harder to "un-deaden" a room from wall to wall carpet.
Passive speakers - a couple of suggestions aside from the Revel universe. Ref 3A Nefes 2 speakers with Benchmark ABH2 plus matching preamp. Add one or two SVS 3000 Micro subs and you have a great combo. Magnepan 3.7i with the aforementioned 3000 Micro subs with two of the ABH2's in bridged mode.
For the powered side of things - Kii3 with the bass towers. Heard them one time at a friends house and if I had $40K to drop on an audio system.... Well, I would already have them.

I’m expecting to improve upon the previous system. Interestingly my previous speakers were Ref 3A Episodes. I had to have them out into the room or they became “congested”, soundstage collapsed. I haven’t checked out the latest from Ref 3A. Would like seeing some spins and indepth measurements on them. The Florida Audio Expo is coming up so I’ll probably visit that but not expecting much but the usual… there are a few manufacturers and vendors that are of interest. Would like seeing LS60 Kef’s, perhaps the new version R11.

I was hoping to open the room up a bit utilizing speakers such as the Neumann and Genelec which allow much closer positioning to the front wall. I’d be interested in others that may have similar approaches. I wonder how a 3-4 sub setup with Genelec 8351’s, KH 310’s might perform in room too?

Could end up delaying the final solution and use my Mission Cyrus monitors or grabbing some Kali IN 8’s and combine them with a year old SVS Ultra 16 I picked up locally a couple weeks ago to get the music going and do some measuring.

 

[Muddywaters]

If it’s not too late, any in wall wiring might be good to do. More for HT, but I’d want as little XLR/speaker cables visible.

For subs, the only downside to ported is the size. I’ve got 3 Monoprice ported subs, but they are chunky.

Yeah too late for wiring but in this case shouldn’t be a big issue. Only cables exposed somewhat could be sub related. I can get some cable lifters

 

[Willem]

With that SVS Ultra 16 (sealed or ported?) you have made a good start. Just add two smaller subs and you are fine for subs. Add Multi Sub Optimizer and a miniDSP 2x4HD. SVS are currently reintroducing the old SB/PB 1000 and 2000 for a bargain price. They lack inbuilt filters, but that is irrelevant if you go the MSO/miniDSP 2x4HD route.
In a completely opposite situation, with quite a bit of existing gear, I have just taken delivery of an SB2000 subwoofer at 600 euros, to be used in Earl Geddes style as my main sub in a front corner, and to be combined with an existing B&W PV1d at the back and an existing KEF Kube 8b on a sidewall. I just downloaded the plugin for the 2x4HD - I admit it all looks a bit daunting.
My main speakers are Quad 2805 electrostats. If you have never heard them you should give them a try. Some well known recording engineers are known to have used them. Since they are dipoles, they are less affected by the room. I am not sure they will like the humid climate in Florida, however.

 

[Muddywaters]

With that SVS Ultra 16 (sealed or ported?) you have made a good start. Just add two smaller subs and you are fine for subs. Add Multi Sub Optimizer and a miniDSP 2x4HD. SVS are currently reintroducing the old SB/PB 1000 and 2000 for a bargain price. They lack inbuilt filters, but that is irrelevant if you go the MSO/miniDSP 2x4HD route.
In a completely opposite situation, with quite a bit of existing gear, I have just taken delivery of an SB2000 subwoofer at 600 euros, to be used in Earl Geddes style as my main sub in a front corner, and to be combined with an existing B&W PV1d at the back and an existing KEF Kube 8b on a sidewall. I just downloaded the plugin for the 2x4HD - I admit it all looks a bit daunting.
My main speakers are Quad 2805 electrostats. If you have never heard them you should give them a try. Some well known recording engineers are known to have used them. Since they are dipoles, they are less affected by the room. I am not sure they will like the humid climate in Florida, however.

My Ultra is the sealed version. I bought it with the thought of using it in either this room or in the family room home theater knowing I have a need in both rooms. What’s your thought on ported or sealed? I’m leaning more towards a couple ported for the HT.

I would appreciate following your adventure dialing your subs in! I haven’t gone deep into reading about the capabilities of MSO yet. It seems to be just what’s needed for integrating the multiple sub approach. Hopefully easier than other ways. Perhaps easier to achieve very good results?

 

[Bob from Florida]

I’m expecting to improve upon the previous system. Interestingly my previous speakers were Ref 3A Episodes. I had to have them out into the room or they became “congested”, soundstage collapsed. I haven’t checked out the latest from Ref 3A. Would like seeing some spins and indepth measurements on them. The Florida Audio Expo is coming up so I’ll probably visit that but not expecting much but the usual… there are a few manufacturers and vendors that are of interest. Would like seeing LS60 Kef’s, perhaps the new version R11.

I was hoping to open the room up a bit utilizing speakers such as the Neumann and Genelec which allow much closer positioning to the front wall. I’d be interested in others that may have similar approaches. I wonder how a 3-4 sub setup with Genelec 8351’s, KH 310’s might perform in room too?

Could end up delaying the final solution and use my Mission Cyrus monitors or grabbing some Kali IN 8’s and combine them with a year old SVS Ultra 16 I picked up locally a couple weeks ago to get the music going and do some measuring.

I can tell you the Nefes 2 is way beyond the Episodes. They are better in some ways compared to my Grand Veenas. A friend of mine has the exact setup I suggested - different subs - and it sounds awesome in his room.

 

[Bob from Florida]

. I am not sure they will like the humid climate in Florida, however.

Electro stats go "snap, crackle, and pop" when you open a door or window in Florida.

 

[Muddywaters]

I can tell you the Nefes 2 is way beyond the Episodes. They are better in some ways compared to my Grand Veenas. A friend of mine has the exact setup I suggested - different subs - and it sounds awesome in his room.

I don’t se Ref 3A on the exhibitor list for the Florida Expo. Tash mustn’t be making the trip. You’d think Canadians would be flocking to Florida.

Edit to correct spelling

 

[Willem]

I would appreciate following your adventure dialing your subs in! I haven’t gone deep into reading about the capabilities of MSO yet. It seems to be just what’s needed for integrating the multiple sub approach. Hopefully easier than other ways. Perhaps easier to achieve very good results?

From my reading MSO offers the most sophisticated equalization for multiple subwoofers over a wide listening area. It also looks pretty daunting - I will keep you posted (there is a recent ASR thread with MSO issues and experiences). The new DSpeaker X2 seems an affordable and far easier solution, although probably less powerful.
I plan to measure the three subs at five listening positions. I will also measure the main speakers above the high pass filter up to about 250 Hz and create a few peq filters in REW to be used with my ADI-2 DAC.
From what I read equalizing sealed subs is easier than ported ones, and also that one should not mix sealed and ported. Since I already had two sealed subs, the choice for the sealed SB2000 rather than the ported pb2000 was an obvious one. On top of that there is the size issue: I really do not want those ported monsters in our elegant minimalist living room. The new still quite large and crude looking sb2000 sits behind one of the Quad electrostats, while the more elegant and compact PV1d sits in the back for all to see.

 

[Bob from Florida]

I don’t se Ref 3A on the exhibitor list for the Florida Expo. Tash mustn’t be making the trip. You’d think Canadians would be flocking to Florida.

Edit to correct spelling

I have not spoken to Tash since before the pandemic, but transporting big and heavy speakers down to Florida has to be challenging. I would think Axpona or Capital Audio Fest would be more likely choices for Ref 3A.

 

[FrantzM]

Thanks for your thoughts! I actually have had the multi sub thought swimming in the back of my head. It seems to me it doesn’t get as much attention as it should in conversations. It seems more of the focus is on the HT aspects and a lot of discussion on on the desktop 2.1 approach versus midfield room lp situations.

I realize that room treatments are lacking effectiveness in the lower fr areas. My room however is a reverb chamber with major slap echoes though which need to be addressed.

Curious about your preference for ported subs tell me more?

Hi

I was on the side of Sealed = Better. No longer. In a well integrated system, they sound the same. Ported tend to provide, for the same cash outlay, higher output.
This Thread may provide you with some answers.

Peace.

 

[Spkrdctr]

Hi

I was on the side of Sealed = Better. No longer. In a well integrated system, they sound the same. Ported tend to provide, for the same cash outlay, higher output.
This Thread may provide you with some answers.

Peace.

Ported in my mind is always the way to go. Sealed is not great for HT rooms. You want deep and loud, that means ported. There are always very expensive exceptions but why be the exception? It is just more money for no return. I was thinking about the size of your medium room. You are looking at very powerful high output speakers. I would make sure they sound good at modest levels and not just high output. Maybe in the 75 to 80db range? All in all two subs will pressurize that room with no problem. When your done, it will give you ear damaging rock concert level spls. Good luck on your adventure

 

[Muddywaters]

Since my application here in this thread is 2 channel the need for sub 30Hz performance isn’t a prerequisite. I don’t listen regularly to edm although maybe I’ll enjoy some more with a system capable of delivering cleanly in the bottom octave. I’m more inclined to hear the results on my classical recordings such as the train rumbling on Schubert’s 9th LSO, Krips up.

Sounds like I’ll keep the Ultra 16-SB for this room and go ported, dual for the family room HT. The HT needs to pressurize a much greater volume space. This info helps my focus on completing aspects for both areas.

I haven’t noticed any complaints of the Neumann’s lacking (or Genelec) in lower volume listening but I certainly will try to verify that.

Still wondering if 8351’s or KH310 would be more than enough for this room?

 

[Bob from Florida]

Since my application here in this thread is 2 channel the need for sub 30Hz performance isn’t a prerequisite. I don’t listen regularly to edm although maybe I’ll enjoy some more with a system capable of delivering cleanly in the bottom octave. I’m more inclined to hear the results on my classical recordings such as the train rumbling on Schubert’s 9th LSO, Krips up.

Sounds like I’ll keep the Ultra 16-SB for this room and go ported, dual for the family room HT. The HT needs to pressurize a much greater volume space. This info helps my focus on completing aspects for both areas.

I haven’t noticed any complaints of the Neumann’s lacking (or Genelec) in lower volume listening but I certainly will try to verify that.

Still wondering if 8351’s or KH310 would be more than enough for this room?

I hear what you are saying about music and subwoofers. My Grand Veena's are full-range speakers and I primarily used the sub in the past for movies - I watch movies using my stereo for sound. I bought the SVS 3000 Micro last year and decided to use it with music also. Once I got it set up - the phone app is brilliant for settings - I am very pleased with the results. Most music, I hear little or no difference with or without sub. However, if there is content below say 40 Hertz - that low bass becomes audible and has impact. Enhanced effects in movies will "shake the room" with ease. So, now I just use the sub all the time. Your SB 16 will probably be quite enjoyable no matter what speakers you acquire.

 

[Willem]

I really want to put in a plea for multiple subs. Not for extra power, which you do not really need in this quite small music room, but for a much smoother response over a wider area. Archimago added one small sub to combine with his huge main sub, and the result is clearly better: http://archimago.blogspot.com/2020/05/musings-measurements-subwoofers-to.html With your big 16 inch sub, one or preferaby two small subs like the SB1000 or SB2000 will work fine. In fact, for music in that room even a smaller main sub is likely to be enough already.

For some info:

Multiple Subwoofer after Geddes

https://www.harman.com/documents/multsubs_0.pdf

https://audioroundtable.com/misc/Welti_Multisub.pdf

And of course, Floyd Toole's book.

None of this should be done withpout some form of dsp room eq.

 

[Spkrdctr]

My response to having subs is this. If you are not cracking your drywall during on screen cannon/artillery shots, then you might need more sub! Well, that might be a little over the top. But hey, overkill is fun!

 

[JRS]

I'd take a serious look at the Perlisten line. Impeccable engineering, rave reviews and one of the few systems that meet spec for the ultra designation of THX home theater capability.

 

[Muddywaters]

I really want to put in a plea for multiple subs. Not for extra power, which you do not really need in this quite small music room, but for a much smoother response over a wider area. Archimago added one small sub to combine with his huge main sub, and the result is clearly better: http://archimago.blogspot.com/2020/05/musings-measurements-subwoofers-to.html With your big 16 inch sub, one or preferaby two small subs like the SB1000 or SB2000 will work fine. In fact, for music in that room even a smaller main sub is likely to be enough already.

For some info:

Multiple Subwoofer after Geddes

https://www.harman.com/documents/multsubs_0.pdf

https://audioroundtable.com/misc/Welti_Multisub.pdf

And of course, Floyd Toole's book.

None of this should be done withpout some form of dsp room eq.

Thanks for the links. I’m certain I’ve seen the Geddes video and followed some threads on AVS many many years ago. I’ll check it out as a refresher. I happened to be perusing the DSpeaker website a couple days ago. Your plea is not falling on deaf ears. @Willem

I also happened to realize that I still can bury some cables behind the floor trim baseboard (not installed yet) to anticipate sub locations around the room! I suppose I’ll have to run both single ended rca and balanced xlr? Or maybe run one xlr cable but terminate as needed for rca/xlr as for flexibility? Some mogami or canare, monoprice bulk mic cable??? Any particular recommendation?

 

[Muddywaters]

I'd take a serious look at the Perlisten line. Impeccable engineering, rave reviews and one of the few systems that meet spec for the ultra designation of THX home theater capability.

I’ve seen them mentioned here. They are going to be at the Florida Audio Expo coming up mid month. I’ll definitely check them out there. Thanks

 

[Bob from Florida]

Thanks for the links. I’m certain I’ve seen the Geddes video and followed some threads on AVS many many years ago. I’ll check it out as a refresher. I happened to be perusing the DSpeaker website a couple days ago. Your plea is not falling on deaf ears. @Willem

I also happened to realize that I still can bury some cables behind the floor trim baseboard (not installed yet) to anticipate sub locations around the room! I suppose I’ll have to run both single ended rca and balanced xlr? Or maybe run one xlr cable but terminate as needed for rca/xlr as for flexibility? Some mogami or canare, monoprice bulk mic cable??? Any particular recommendation?

Use the SVS wireless system and you only have to worry about power cords.