Starting From Scratch

[Muddywaters]

Our home was inundated with 40” of the Gulf of Mexico during the high tide surge from Hurricane Ian 9/28/22, looking for some help bringing the music back. Still many months to go before we’ll be moving back in but would like to start exploring my options for my 2 channel room here. Speaker choice is wide open and appropriate room treatment is not an afterthought. Budgeting for speakers up to $10k maybe more if something knocked me out including amps. My listening ranges across a broad swath. R&B and Jazz at heart, Chamber Works to Wagner, B-52’s to ZZ and Zappa. Would like the ability to go loud with authority.

The room in question isn’t a good size I imagine. Dimensions are 14’x17’ x 8’ I’ll scan the graph paper drawing my wife did for the two windows and pocket door. Slab floor with sheetrock on furring strips, 1/2” insulation with block walls if that helps. It is dedicated as my music room but one accommodation this time around for my wife will be the addition of a sofa bed. I’ll have an adjustable height standup desk somewhere in there and coming from the ancient past there will be Ikea Kallax shelving to handle a couple thousand lp’s.

I did work with REW and my Rat Shack dB meter as a mike many years ago very rudimentary to characterize the room. Worked with GIK Acoustics and ended up with double stacked Tri-Traps on the speaker end (14’ width) two of the 4” 24”x48” panels on the ceiling reflection point and 3 more across the back wall. Those are gone now due to flood water and mold.

I’m interested in maximizing floor space if possible with speaker choices that can work close to the front wall without sacrificing soundstage depth and imaging. Was thinking maybe the pro monitor powered options like Neumann, Genelec or ? I’m unschooled with all of them other than written word so need some guidance. Where do I go in south Florida to start hearing some them? Are Kef and Revel options or would they need a bit more breathing room. Is the Kii 3 a contender? I hope this gives us a start for comment.

Regards,

Scott

 

[Muddywaters]

Here are a couple photos of the raw room and the room dimensions. I continue to read the speaker reviews and feel the Genelec 8351/8361 Ones, the Neumann KH310/420, and Kii 3 pique my interest. Another speaker has caught my interest which I want to explore further. That is the KEF LS60.

I'm trying to ascertain the boundary requirements for all of these. My hope is to keep the chosen speakers as close possible to the front wall and space them as widely as possible realizing I need to be cognizant of the boundary effects on each speaker and how close they get becoming problematic. The Kii 3 being cardioid maybe is better in a situation like that? Genelec works well very close to the wall but unsure how close to get with the side wall? Found some info in the KH420 review thread with Neumann's recommendation being a min of 1.25m would put them quite out into the room more then I hoped. Have to do more digging on Kii3 and the LS60. Also open to suggestions on alternatives with the considerations I've mentioned.

I also am aware that outside of the KH 420 I'm likely going to want subs for the low reach. Multi-sub also can benefit the smoothing of room modes which I've readily experienced in this room. BXT's for Kii is probably a bridge too far and I cringe a bit at the dollars required of the Genelec and Neumann options. Wondering how much I would sacrifice using some alternatives like Hsu, SVS or Rythmic and running Dirac?

Room treatment requirements will vary a little perhaps due to the dispersion characteristics of which ever speaker goes into the room and location, correct?

The wide angle shot throws the perspective off.

Thank you in advance for any feedback/guidance you can share!

Regards,

Scott

 

[Glasvegas]

Surprised you didn’t get a response from any of our members, especially as you have such a “blank canvas”.

I can’t comment on speakers in your price range. However, I would recommend allocating, what would be, a fraction of your total cost on room correction software e.g. Dirac. Of course Neumann and Genelec have their own version of room correction software.

Dirac was the best upgrade I ever purchased.

 

[BigFKahuna]

Here are a couple photos of the raw room and the room dimensions. I continue to read the speaker reviews and feel the Genelec 8351/8361 Ones, the Neumann KH310/420, and Kii 3 pique my interest. Another speaker has caught my interest which I want to explore further. That is the KEF LS60.

I'm trying to ascertain the boundary requirements for all of these. My hope is to keep the chosen speakers as close possible to the front wall and space them as widely as possible realizing I need to be cognizant of the boundary effects on each speaker and how close they get becoming problematic. The Kii 3 being cardioid maybe is better in a situation like that? Genelec works well very close to the wall but unsure how close to get with the side wall? Found some info in the KH420 review thread with Neumann's recommendation being a min of 1.25m would put them quite out into the room more then I hoped. Have to do more digging on Kii3 and the LS60. Also open to suggestions on alternatives with the considerations I've mentioned.

I also am aware that outside of the KH 420 I'm likely going to want subs for the low reach. Multi-sub also can benefit the smoothing of room modes which I've readily experienced in this room. BXT's for Kii is probably a bridge too far and I cringe a bit at the dollars required of the Genelec and Neumann options. Wondering how much I would sacrifice using some alternatives like Hsu, SVS or Rythmic and running Dirac?

Room treatment requirements will vary a little perhaps due to the dispersion characteristics of which ever speaker goes into the room and location, correct?

View attachment 258147

The wide angle shot throws the perspective off.
View attachment 258143

View attachment 258144

Thank you in advance for any feedback/guidance you can share!

Regards,

Scott

FWIW, I am loving my LS60's with one KC62.

 

[Steven Holt]

I will let the other members give you advice on your gear, as most know better than me. I can suggest you put a nice thick carpet down, make sure your windows are well - draped, and place your system against your un - windowed wall. God bless and best of luck my friend, you've been given a hard row to hoe. PS not too much furniture, you want the system to make the sound, not the couch.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

Your speaker selection is good for starters and spent most of your budget on speakers as they determine the sound by orders of magnitude more than the rest of any electronic.

Next major influence on sound has your room. Therefore RoomEQ where you can minimize the “distortion” caused by your room is essential (Audyssey, Dirac, MA1, GLM etc) especially when combined with one or more subs strategically placed to further minimize room modes (peaks, nulls).
(Room treatment is up to your taste, but be warned, it can become a very deep rabbit hole and honest professional advice is hard to find).

For passives (amp needed): KEF, Revel /JBL
For actives: Neumann and Genelec

All have been reviewed and measured very well and pursue a science based design philosophy (sure there are more, but keep it simple). Decide how loud you want to listen and preselect some which fits your budget.

See if you can listen at home. Dealerships have different rooms and the speaker will always sound different at home. (Plus dealers rarely give good advice).

For the passive speakers you need a power amp eg Benchmark AHB2 or the Purify based amps from boxem, buckeye or audio phonics.

Get a DAC to connect to your power amps or active speakers. Pick one from the green and blue section. If you want quality, features and help, have a look at RME ADI2. Next get a streamer - a Raspberry Pi does the job already. Pay more for more convenience in setup (not for alleged sound differences).

Or get an AVR (and use in preamp only mode) if you want to hook up TV too, it has DAC, Streamer and RoomEQ in one box. Good ones are currently from Denon, Marantz etc

Don’t buy expensive cables. Buy from eg Amazon or Walmart etc. Come here if in doubt.

Gazzilion of choices. Check some out, preselect some which you like and come back with more questions.

Enjoy.

 

[Muddywaters]

Thanks all. I’ll respond separately to @HarmonicTHD just because he’s covered the gamut widely.

This will be a slog because we likely won’t get back into the house until May

 

[Muddywaters]

Your speaker selection is good for starters and spent most of your budget on speakers as they determine the sound by orders of magnitude more than the rest of any electronic.

Next major influence on sound has your room. Therefore RoomEQ where you can minimize the “distortion” caused by your room is essential (Audyssey, Dirac, MA1, GLM etc) especially when combined with one or more subs strategically placed to further minimize room modes (peaks, nulls).
(Room treatment is up to your taste, but be warned, it can become a very deep rabbit hole and honest professional advice is hard to find).

For passives (amp needed): KEF, Revel /JBL
For actives: Neumann and Genelec

All have been reviewed and measured very well and pursue a science based design philosophy (sure there are more, but keep it simple). Decide how loud you want to listen and preselect some which fits your budget.

See if you can listen at home. Dealerships have different rooms and the speaker will always sound different at home. (Plus dealers rarely give good advice).

For the passive speakers you need a power amp eg Benchmark AHB2 or the Purify based amps from boxem, buckeye or audio phonics.

Get a DAC to connect to your power amps or active speakers. Pick one from the green and blue section. If you want quality, features and help, have a look at RME ADI2. Next get a streamer - a Raspberry Pi does the job already. Pay more for more convenience in setup (not for alleged sound differences).

Or get an AVR (and use in preamp only mode) if you want to hook up TV too, it has DAC, Streamer and RoomEQ in one box. Good ones are currently from Denon, Marantz etc

Don’t buy expensive cables. Buy from eg Amazon or Walmart etc. Come here if in doubt.

Gazzilion of choices. Check some out, preselect some which you like and come back with more questions.

Enjoy.

Thanks for responding!

Speakers I’m leaning towards powered for a few reasons but not going to eliminate passive from consideration. I would include Kef’s LS60 obviously in the powered group. I mentioned in my op my emphasis on the speaker choice(s) first and room treatments to minimize blatant issues. If the flood hadn’t happened I was looking at adding subs and Dirac this year. I did have double stacked GIK Tri Traps in the front corners, 2x GIK absorbers on the ceiling first reflection point and 3x across the back wall. With shelving and furniture it helped the room immensely. Didn’t eliminate the room modes but helped. I anticipate at least starting from that again and see what’s what once I get back into the room.

Loudness… I’m going to want the capability to hit 105 to110 dB w/o strain on occasion, not on a daily basis though. Measuring with my old Radio Shack meter not long before we flooded I was bouncing the needle in room in that range. Anticipate listening position 7-8 feet 2.2-2.5m distance

Familiar with the amps and actually will be needing some for the family room home theater so definitely will be heading toward class D there.

Listening at home is a few months away unfortunately Gives me time to discuss speaker options and get out and listen to some and see if I can find some dealers that might allow in home trial.

DAC wise I’m a fan of RME actually, had a Baby Face lost in the surge. I need to look at AD capability for recording vinyl too. I know RME has some good options.

Streaming options will need to be checked out. I was streaming via pc and my squeeze box’s, all gone in the water. I saved my PUC so I’ll have usb/AES EBU at least to get started.

Need a AVR for my HT likely won’t in this room. If I get an RME or similar should be set won’t I?

I broke my expensive cable purchases 12+ years thankfully. Mogami, Canare and Belkin typically

Anybody? How’d a set of KH310 over matching KH750 work in my space? Genelec 8351’s and which Genny sub?

I see an LS60 owner chimed in! Great

Cheers, heading out for golf and dinner with my wife

To be continued…

 

[Muddywaters]

FWIW, I am loving my LS60's with one KC62.

Thanks for chiming in. I definitely have the LS60 on my radar. I take it you’re enjoying them? What’s your room size, listening distance? Good volume capability?

Regards,

Scott

 

[BigFKahuna]

Thanks for chiming in. I definitely have the LS60 on my radar. I take it you’re enjoying them? What’s your room size, listening distance? Good volume capability?

Regards,

Scott

My LS60's are in a kitchen/great room/party room area of about 20 feet by 30 feet, with an opening to another room on either end. Hardwood floors, one wall is a 16 foot window that slides open to the outside, lots of wood cabinetry with not a lot of soft coverings, and a large centre island. They are rather far apart right now, about 12 feet, although with approval I might try to bring them closer to 9 feet. My listening distance depends on what we are doing, sitting around the island for meals, games, groups in a party atmosphere or one or two seats for ideal listening later in the evenings. I am older and retired with adult children (and grandchildren) so my musical tastes are varied, ranging from rock to folk, country, soft rock, easy listening and when there is a call for it some hip hop and dance. Jazz and classical, guitar and easy listening for background dinner music. Not really a near field set up at all. I'll Airplay Deezer or stream through the KEF Connect app, the latter seeming to be better quality but only when I am actually "listening" to music. The sub is really not necessary, but certainly is appreciated when I want the bass lines. The loudness is more than we can handle at party volumes, in fact the neighbours have no problem making out what we are listening to! And, I must add, the aesthetics are a plus for both myself and my wife, as is the fact we freed up another cabinet once the amp and streamer were removed. As well the sub is less obtrusive than my previous 12" Polk, yet provides more accurate bass. The KEF Connect allows for some modification of sound, but I am sure not to the degree that DIRAC would, but certainly enough to make me happy. Too bad you are not closer, I would be happy to give you a demo! Yesterday one of the kids asked if I will upgrade if/when KEF comes out with a "better" LS60, I honestly do not think I would.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

Thanks for responding!

Speakers I’m leaning towards powered for a few reasons but not going to eliminate passive from consideration. I would include Kef’s LS60 obviously in the powered group. I mentioned in my op my emphasis on the speaker choice(s) first and room treatments to minimize blatant issues. If the flood hadn’t happened I was looking at adding subs and Dirac this year. I did have double stacked GIK Tri Traps in the front corners, 2x GIK absorbers on the ceiling first reflection point and 3x across the back wall. With shelving and furniture it helped the room immensely. Didn’t eliminate the room modes but helped. I anticipate at least starting from that again and see what’s what once I get back into the room.

Loudness… I’m going to want the capability to hit 105 to110 dB w/o strain on occasion, not on a daily basis though. Measuring with my old Radio Shack meter not long before we flooded I was bouncing the needle in room in that range. Anticipate listening position 7-8 feet 2.2-2.5m distance

Familiar with the amps and actually will be needing some for the family room home theater so definitely will be heading toward class D there.

Listening at home is a few months away unfortunately Gives me time to discuss speaker options and get out and listen to some and see if I can find some dealers that might allow in home trial.

DAC wise I’m a fan of RME actually, had a Baby Face lost in the surge. I need to look at AD capability for recording vinyl too. I know RME has some good options.

Streaming options will need to be checked out. I was streaming via pc and my squeeze box’s, all gone in the water. I saved my PUC so I’ll have usb/AES EBU at least to get started.

Need a AVR for my HT likely won’t in this room. If I get an RME or similar should be set won’t I?

I broke my expensive cable purchases 12+ years thankfully. Mogami, Canare and Belkin typically

Anybody? How’d a set of KH310 over matching KH750 work in my space? Genelec 8351’s and which Genny sub?

I see an LS60 owner chimed in! Great

Cheers, heading out for golf and dinner with my wife

To be continued…

Sounds terrible what you had to go through losing all in that flood and so. Hope you are finding strength and going out and enjoying some dinner sounds a great thing to do.

I think you are on the right track. These are all great speakers and you will make the right choice once you have them home for a spin.

I have Neumann in my office and KEF in our living room. JBL/Revel I never heard as there is no real dealer network here.

 

[onion]

Is it worth getting the opinion of an acoustician? If you need to refurbish the room anyway, it may be economically viable to get room treatment built in (sound absorption, isolation etc).

 

[Muddywaters]

My LS60's are in a kitchen/great room/party room area of about 20 feet by 30 feet, with an opening to another room on either end. Hardwood floors, one wall is a 16 foot window that slides open to the outside, lots of wood cabinetry with not a lot of soft coverings, and a large centre island. They are rather far apart right now, about 12 feet, although with approval I might try to bring them closer to 9 feet. My listening distance depends on what we are doing, sitting around the island for meals, games, groups in a party atmosphere or one or two seats for ideal listening later in the evenings. I am older and retired with adult children (and grandchildren) so my musical tastes are varied, ranging from rock to folk, country, soft rock, easy listening and when there is a call for it some hip hop and dance. Jazz and classical, guitar and easy listening for background dinner music. Not really a near field set up at all. I'll Airplay Deezer or stream through the KEF Connect app, the latter seeming to be better quality but only when I am actually "listening" to music. The sub is really not necessary, but certainly is appreciated when I want the bass lines. The loudness is more than we can handle at party volumes, in fact the neighbours have no problem making out what we are listening to! And, I must add, the aesthetics are a plus for both myself and my wife, as is the fact we freed up another cabinet once the amp and streamer were removed. As well the sub is less obtrusive than my previous 12" Polk, yet provides more accurate bass. The KEF Connect allows for some modification of sound, but I am sure not to the degree that DIRAC would, but certainly enough to make me happy. Too bad you are not closer, I would be happy to give you a demo! Yesterday one of the kids asked if I will upgrade if/when KEF comes out with a "better" LS60, I honestly do not think I would.

Thanks for the feedback and offer to listen. Maybe in my travels what part of the country you in?

How old are the grandkids? That brings up a minor concern with toddlers poking fingers in exposed drivers

 

[Muddywaters]

Is it worth getting the opinion of an acoustician? If you need to refurbish the room anyway, it may be economically viable to get room treatment built in (sound absorption, isolation etc).

Not an unreasonable thought. Wallboard is already up and taped, mudded and sanded. Ready for primer. I’ve done some checking out of vendors looking for ideas if there were any approaches, maybe something that could be installed between studs. Haven’t seen anything yet. I’m going to have to make some compromises. Room won’t be a full blown studio.

Don’t think I’ll go so far as hiring a consultant. I wIll talk with GIK again. They were responsive when I did the room the first time.

 

[BigFKahuna]

Thanks for the feedback and offer to listen. Maybe in my travels what part of the country you in?

How old are the grandkids? That brings up a minor concern with toddlers poking fingers in exposed drivers

Well, the offer stands, but we are on the other side of the continent I suspect, in Canada. With three (and more coming) grandchildren, 6 grand puppies and and the occasional party, I worry about my drivers as well. But the journey is wonderful.

 

[Muddywaters]

I’m going to discuss options with GIK Acoustics and see what a “max” approach might entail. I’ll need to work back from there to accommodate my record storage and a desk/work surface, laptop & monitor.

I had double stacked tri-traps in the front corners, two panels on the ceilings, three across the back walls. Somewhat like below. Didn’t have the sofa in the old room layout.

Previous setup had floorstanders 38” out from the front wall ~7’ apart. The window on the left was partially blocked with dyi diffusion. I’ll pick up a Umik as we get closer to getting back in.

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

I understand that the room main purpose, will be to listen to music. HT is in another room. Budget for speakers system to be $10K. I'll exclude Acoustic Room treatment from my views. I would however remind you that under 100 Hz acoustic treatments are huge, unwieldy and most often expensive, for the size of his room, I am not sure you should consider passive acoustic treatments for the lower bass (under 100 Hz). This said, you have a wonderful blank canvas .

At this point in time, from experience, and following the studies and works of luminaries in the field, I would from the start, consider, at least a pair of subwoofers, before even thinking about speakers! Yes... A pair of capable subwoofers. Would not go over $1600.oo, to be on the safe size. $2000.oo for the subwoofer system. The Subwoofer comparison Tool will provide with several choices for this room. Admitting my strong bias toward the works of Earl Geddes, I would budget for a subwoofer system with 3 subwoofers + the appropriate DSP controller; again, @sweetchaos Subwoofer tool will guide you.

I haven't heard many speakers recently. I have come to consider ASR reviews as my reference and look at ASR measurements first. You want to be able to hit 115 dB at the main listening positions from time to time.

To be in the endgame ballpark. I'd go with the Neumann KH-420. One of the best speakers measured here. By its lone self a full range speaker. Capable of hitting your peak SPL with ease.

To illustrate this:
RME ADI2DACFS ........................................... $1200.oo ( it is actually around $1100 on Amazon)
3 x Rythmik L12 or SVS SB 2000 or equivalent
I favor Ported , personally but) ............ $1800.oo
miniDSp 2x4 HD ........................................... $250.oo
Neumann KH420 ......................................... $10,500.oo/pair
Your favorite streamer ......

From there you get MSO and REW, spend a few weekends , fiddling, measuring, optimizing and at the end of this, you have a full range , full scale, n endgame 2-channel audio system...
I would ask a fair question. Can such a system be surpassed by ??? <drop your pair of favorite loudspeakers here>???


Peace.


P.S. I could suggest another system, based on used speakers to replace the KH-420. Later

 

[FrantzM]

"Later" came early , as a business meeting was scratched ...

Replace the Neumann KH-420 with a pair of used Revel Salon 2, I have seen some around $10,000/pair. Add a Hypex-based 250 wpc amplifier. keep everything else the same...
Heaven.

Peace.

 

[Bob from Florida]

I’m going to discuss options with GIK Acoustics and see what a “max” approach might entail. I’ll need to work back from there to accommodate my record storage and a desk/work surface, laptop & monitor.

I had double stacked tri-traps in the front corners, two panels on the ceilings, three across the back walls. Somewhat like below. Didn’t have the sofa in the old room layout.
View attachment 261502
Previous setup had floorstanders 38” out from the front wall ~7’ apart. The window on the left was partially blocked with dyi diffusion. I’ll pick up a Umik as we get closer to getting back in.

Sorry to hear of your misfortune. Perhaps you will have a better setup in the end. If it were me, I would put down porcelain wood plank tile or real hardwood planks. You can always add a throw rug to tame the highs. Much harder to "un-deaden" a room from wall to wall carpet.
Passive speakers - a couple of suggestions aside from the Revel universe. Ref 3A Nefes 2 speakers with Benchmark ABH2 plus matching preamp. Add one or two SVS 3000 Micro subs and you have a great combo. Magnepan 3.7i with the aforementioned 3000 Micro subs with two of the ABH2's in bridged mode.
For the powered side of things - Kii3 with the bass towers. Heard them one time at a friends house and if I had $40K to drop on an audio system.... Well, I would already have them.

 

[Muddywaters]

Hi

I understand that the room main purpose, will be to listen to music. HT is in another room. Budget for speakers system to be $10K. I'll exclude Acoustic Room treatment from my views. I would however remind you that under 100 Hz acoustic treatments are huge, unwieldy and most often expensive, for the size of his room, I am not sure you should consider passive acoustic treatments for the lower bass (under 100 Hz). This said, you have a wonderful blank canvas .

At this point in time, from experience, and following the studies and works of luminaries in the field, I would from the start, consider, at least a pair of subwoofers, before even thinking about speakers! Yes... A pair of capable subwoofers. Would not go over $1600.oo, to be on the safe size. $2000.oo for the subwoofer system. The Subwoofer comparison Tool will provide with several choices for this room. Admitting my strong bias toward the works of Earl Geddes, I would budget for a subwoofer system with 3 subwoofers + the appropriate DSP controller; again, @sweetchaos Subwoofer tool will guide you.

I haven't heard many speakers recently. I have come to consider ASR reviews as my reference and look at ASR measurements first. You want to be able to hit 115 dB at the main listening positions from time to time.

To be in the endgame ballpark. I'd go with the Neumann KH-420. One of the best speakers measured here. By its lone self a full range speaker. Capable of hitting your peak SPL with ease.

To illustrate this:
RME ADI2DACFS ........................................... $1200.oo ( it is actually around $1100 on Amazon)
3 x Rythmik L12 or SVS SB 2000 or equivalent
I favor Ported , personally but) ............ $1800.oo
miniDSp 2x4 HD ........................................... $250.oo
Neumann KH420 ......................................... $10,500.oo/pair
Your favorite streamer ......

From there you get MSO and REW, spend a few weekends , fiddling, measuring, optimizing and at the end of this, you have a full range , full scale, n endgame 2-channel audio system...
I would ask a fair question. Can such a system be surpassed by ??? <drop your pair of favorite loudspeakers here>???


Peace.


P.S. I could suggest another system, based on used speakers to replace the KH-420. Later

Thanks for your thoughts! I actually have had the multi sub thought swimming in the back of my head. It seems to me it doesn’t get as much attention as it should in conversations. It seems more of the focus is on the HT aspects and a lot of discussion on on the desktop 2.1 approach versus midfield room lp situations.

I realize that room treatments are lacking effectiveness in the lower fr areas. My room however is a reverb chamber with major slap echoes though which need to be addressed.

Curious about your preference for ported subs tell me more?