Speaker purchase advice for small room (~2500€)

[tuga]

I've measured a bit now using REW with my UMIK, and got the following results when experimenting (w/ 1/48 smoothing)

Could you change the vertical scale to 50dB wide (i.e. min55-max105dB)?

Make sure that you are not sitting in the middle of the room.
You can try one/some of these speaker and listener position sugestions as a starting point: http://noaudiophile.com/speakercalc/

 

[jinithin]

Could you change the vertical scale to 50dB wide (i.e. min55-max105dB)?

Make sure that you are not sitting in the middle of the room.
You can try one/some of these speaker and listener position sugestions as a starting point: http://noaudiophile.com/speakercalc/

Sure!

Regarding the seating positions, I've tried some of them.
But the painful thing is (with the calculator you linked), that most of the formulas want to place the speakers ~90cm between each other.
It's really hard to make a triangle then if you need somewhere to sit

I've also got a door right behind where the armchair is now, so it's a bit hard to push stuff further back.

 

[Midwest Blade]

I had some treatment from before, and tried to make things better with my S400's.
Don't have any measurements left from those speakers though.
Sorry for offending you.
I will redo, and test without treatment once I buy new speakers. I promise.[/QUOTE]

Jinithin - no apology necessary as no offence was taken. I am a firm believer in measuring before treatment simply because we need to know what we are trying to modify. You have a neat little room and I am glad to see that you taking the right steps to make it better. Good luck with your efforts.

 

[q3cpma]

Great, I'll add those to the list.
Seems like they are not available for demo though, but I can at least buy them without hassle.



I understand.
The speakers are placed along the short wall.
With the S400's I tried multiple positions regarding toe-in.
From pointing them straight on in the room, and toeing them in towards my ears.
Unfortunately I do not own them anymore, so I can not try the cross position which you illustrated.

Thank you for all your answers.



Thank you so much for your elaborate answer.

I have not heard the R3's, but they're at the top of my list.
I'll make sure to listen to them in the coming weeks.

Regarding powered monitors, maybe I'll reconsider.
If I find something that just blows passive speakers (w/ dsp) out of the water, then maybe I'll budge
I'm just the kind of person to have equipment for a long time whenever I feel it's "the one".
So naturally, I'm afraid of active speakers due to extra parts that can go wrong.

Great suggestion with the KH80's and JBL's. I'll make sure those are on the list too.

Ah, if you're open to active solutions, provided they're not too expensive, the Genelec 8030C would do wonder in your case.

Is this the resonance at c. 700Hz that you're talking about? Whether crossed to a sub or not, that resonance will remain present (unless the port is blocked).

OTOH, it's a relatively minor flaw in what is otherwise a superb speaker.

The thing is that I don't know if it's leakage or a resonance due to the internal standing waves or one due to the actual port having a resonance higher than the its fundamental excitation frequency.
It's not horrible, but when you spend 2000€ for a pair, this shouldn't happen. Especially since it's not something inaudible in all conditions: SOS's reviewer and a member here doing some sweeps heard it.

Just give use backports for the powered version, the i serie is already here for when you can't spare a few centimeter in the back.

 

[jinithin]

Jinithin - no apology necessary as no offence was taken. I am a firm believer in measuring before treatment simply because we need to know what we are trying to modify. You have a neat little room and I am glad to see that you taking the right steps to make it better. Good luck with your efforts.

I understand fully.
Sorry if it sounded a bit snarky. English is not my first language.
Thank you so much. Trying to learn as much as I can about all this.

Ah, if you're open to active solutions, provided they're not too expensive, the Genelec 8030C would do wonder in your case.


The thing is that I don't know if it's leakage or a resonance due to the internal standing waves or one due to the actual port having a resonance higher than the its fundamental excitation frequency.
It's not horrible, but when you spend 2000€ for a pair, this shouldn't happen. Especially since it's not something inaudible in all conditions: SOS's reviewer and a member here doing some sweeps heard it.

Just give use backports for the powered version, the i serie is already here for when you can't spare a few centimeter in the back.

Interesting.
Any reason why specifically the 8030C would work great in my room?
Is it any better than the Neumann offerings I so often see recommended around here?

 

[andreasmaaan]

The thing is that I don't know if it's leakage or a resonance due to the internal standing waves or one due to the actual port having a resonance higher than the its fundamental excitation frequency.
It's not horrible, but when you spend 2000€ for a pair, this shouldn't happen. Especially since it's not something inaudible in all conditions: SOS's reviewer and a member here doing some sweeps heard it.

Yes true, if it's a pipe resonance then it will be reduced in level by a high-pass filter to a sub.

I agree that you'd hope not to see it at that price!

FWIW, 700Hz is the resonant frequency of a pipe of length approximately 19cm. That may well be the length of this port. Still, it would surprise me if a pipe resonance at that frequency were that high in level, so I suspect leakage.

The problem may be fixable with the addition of some internal damping material. However, I assume JBL already thought of that and there was some reason it wasn't practical or had other disadvantages that were deemed more problematic. An odd puzzle...

 

[q3cpma]

Any reason why specifically the 8030C would work great in my room?
Is it any better than the Neumann offerings I so often see recommended around here?

I asked this exact question in this thread: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/neumann-kh120a-or-genelec-8030c.11109/
My final choice is Genelec because I feel/think it's made to a higher standard of quality while everything else is almost equal. But if you plan on taking one of these, the matching subwoofers should also be examined: I think the Neumann KH 750 DSP may be better than its Genelec competitor (7350) but a pair of 7040 is the same price as these.

 

[Costas EAR]

Electronic music may be very demanding at the 3rd octave, so i suggest that the speakers should be able to reach high enough spl's over there, and maintain some headroom for equalization.

If you desire strictly a 2-channel approach, maybe these krk should be considered:

https://m.thomann.de/gr/krk_rokit_rp10_3_g4.htm

The matching krk sub (10") is quite capable and not highly priced, which means you can get 2 subs and have money for even more...

Another suggestion is the Presonus Sceptre S8:

https://m.thomann.de/gr/presonus_sceptre_s8.htm

Which seems to have a very capable 8" woofer for plenty of punch. Also they are coaxial's.

Anyway,
I would strongly recommend a multichannel setup, at least a 5.1 one with a nad processor (at 1.3k with dirac). In this case, smaller speakers would be more convenient in a small room, and maybe 5pcs of Neumann 120 would be the best choice:

https://m.thomann.de/gr/neumann_kh_120_a.htm

Paired with the Neumann sub.

 

[stevenswall]

I am a firm believer in measuring before treatment simply because we need to know what we are trying to modify. You have a neat little room and I am glad to see that you taking the right steps to make it better. Good luck with your efforts.

Is there a case where covering large portions of the wall with absorption and having bass traps in the corner would be bad? Guess I haven't measured for ringing (just frequency response), but in my mind that's always the issue: There are reflections, and with as close to zero reflections as possible the music will sound clean.

What are examples of ways in which a room can be fine as is without treatment? I always though just having a room was basically the least optimal thing, so by making it as little like a room as possible, that would be ideal, like 100% absorption of all frequencies on all walls and the ceiling, so then it sounds like you're outside.

 

[q3cpma]

Electronic music may be very demanding at the 3rd octave, so i suggest that the speakers should be able to reach high enough spl's over there, and maintain some headroom for equalization.

If you desire strictly a 2-channel approach, maybe these krk should be considered:

https://m.thomann.de/gr/krk_rokit_rp10_3_g4.htm

The matching krk sub (10") is quite capable and not highly priced, which means you can get 2 subs and have money for even more...

Another suggestion is the Presonus Sceptre S8:

https://m.thomann.de/gr/presonus_sceptre_s8.htm

Which seems to have a very capable 8" woofer for plenty of punch. Also they are coaxial's.

Anyway,
I would strongly recommend a multichannel setup, at least a 5.1 one with a nad processor (at 1.3k with dirac). In this case, smaller speakers would be more convenient in a small room, and maybe 5pcs of Neumann 120 would be the best choice:

https://m.thomann.de/gr/neumann_kh_120_a.htm

Paired with the Neumann sub.

KRK is very unreliable, though. Look up "KRK black goo of death" on youtube.

 

[dshreter]

Regarding powered monitors, maybe I'll reconsider.
If I find something that just blows passive speakers (w/ dsp) out of the water, then maybe I'll budge
I'm just the kind of person to have equipment for a long time whenever I feel it's "the one".
So naturally, I'm afraid of active speakers due to extra parts that can go wrong.

There are too many variables to solidly make an assumption that passive speakers will have greater reliability. Failure rates are going to vary from manufacturer to manufacturer, between design types, and for different reasons. Not to mention that products designed for studio use likely have more robust construction methods in general due to their need for portability and industrial installation.

There’s also an argument to be made that increasing the component count also increases the likelihood of having to repair or replace something. Take two components with a 25% failure rate each over 5 years, and that is a less reliable combination than a single device with a 40% failure rate, just as an example.

Ultimately I can’t predict what is more likely to be reliable for you, but given the high uncertainty involved I would optimize for what will be the best in use rather than what could possibly happen (but most likely not) down the road.

 

[beefkabob]

Keep in mind one thing, that new, without burn-in will lack bass.

That's a myth.

 

[stevenswall]

That's a myth.

Though burn in seems like it can be audible, or there is a difference between these two headphones the listener can detect, though they use the same driver:

 

[beefkabob]

Active speakers have more parts that can break, and those parts certainly can break, but there are countless old active speakers running around, and there are countless blown passive speakers not running around.

Active, I'd get Neumann 80 or 120 or JBL 705p plus a sub, hoping it fits in your budget. Not sure what Genelec would be best in there, but there's probably a good pair. I don't think Adam are as good a value.

As for break in, I'm sure there's some difference between a speaker at 0 seconds and 5 minutes of play, and I'm sure there's less of a difference between 5 minutes and 1 hour, and I'm sure there's even less of a difference between 1 hour and 1000 hours. There's probably about as much difference between 0 seconds and 1000 hours as there is from unit to unit variation. So burning in your speakers is an utter waste of time.

 

[Ron Texas]

After hundreds of hours of break in you will not remember how the speakers sounded out of the box. I think break in is a fairy tale.

 

[dshreter]

The issue I have with the concept of break in, is that it implies a speaker will also wear out (quickly). If the materials do become more flexible or whatever is to be the assumed change, that will continue to happen over time. I’m not familiar with any materials that stretch under load, but then permanently stop stretching after a first deformation.

The only scenario I can envision would be the overuse of glueing in an assembly, and in use it is able to separate between parts where motion is intended.

 

[maty]

The logical thing, in speakers, is that the difference is not noticeable after a first moment.

There are excepctions: small KEF Uni-Q coaxials needs burn in yes or yes. It seems that the new models less hours than the previous ones.

Where are the bass here?

No wonder many do not like the KEF sound. Today satisfaction must be immediate!

 

[beefkabob]

I have no idea what that video is supposed to show us. None at all.

 

[maty]

If you are unable then you have a problem in your audio system. One of them, most likely, in the OS.

It is very easy, you hear it and forget about buying those speakers! Very bad sound. Listen to other videos from that same channel:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLleWZ74MYiSxG31BkmBnvQ/videos

 

[March Audio]

The logical thing, in speakers, is that the difference is not noticeable after a first moment.

There are excepctions: small KEF Uni-Q coaxials needs burn in yes or yes. It seems that the new models less hours than the previous ones.

Where are the bass here?

No wonder many do not like the KEF sound. Today satisfaction must be immediate!

Maty, microphones do not "hear" what we hear. This recording sounds absolutely nothing like what you would experience if there in person.

It tells us absolutely nothing about the sound of those speakers and even less about any requirement for burn in.