• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Speaker purchase advice for small room (~2500€)

jinithin

Member
Joined
Dec 18, 2019
Messages
17
Likes
20
Currently looking at speakers for my new (tiny) room, and was looking for a few suggestions as small rooms are a bit problematic.
My budget is around 2500€, but can spend more if it makes a big difference.
I'd prefer for the speakers to be passive, as I'd hate to buy expensive speakers that will break outside of warranty and become pieces of scrap.
Am mostly listening to electronic music (eg. Aphex Twin, Autechre).
A sub will be purchased as seating position is inside a bass null.

The speakers I'm currently looking at are:
- Buchardt S300
- ATC SCM11
- KEF R3
- Ascend Acoustics 2EX (hard to demo as I'm located in Europe)

The room in question is as said, very small.
Dimensions are 2.68m x 4.5m, and the room has been treated with basstraps, and absorbers/thick curtains at first reflection points.
Absorbers have also been installed on the wall behind the speakers.
Listening position is about ~1.8m (6ft for americans) away from speakers (with the speakers about the same distance away from each other).
Speakers are placed ~45cm from side walls, and ~70cm from the back wall.
Also, there is only one seat in the room, so no need for a super-wide dispersion for multiple listeners.

I've tried the Buchardt S400's in my room, but they did not work at all.
Probably because of the waveguide requiring quite a bit of space to work correctly.
The Buchardt S200's I have sounded way better, but is still missing a bit in the lower-mids.

Thanks.
 

andreasmaaan

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 19, 2018
Messages
6,652
Likes
9,399
I can't see how the waveguide on the S400 would require space to work correctly. Could you explain what sounded off about it to you? Not because I wanna argue/defend, but just to help understand what your preferences might be.
 
OP
J

jinithin

Member
Joined
Dec 18, 2019
Messages
17
Likes
20
I can't see how the waveguide on the S400 would require space to work correctly. Could you explain what sounded off about it to you? Not because I wanna argue/defend, but just to help understand what your preferences might be.

Yeah, maybe that was a wrong guess by me with the waveguide.
I can understand that you're skeptical.

The sound was very very thin, with an almost non-existant soundstage, sucked out mids & awful bass.
The bass problems were probably the room modes fault though.
Just an all in all bad package for my room.
I played around a lot with placement and checked the phase multiple times to ensure that everything was correct.

They did sound fine at my last place though, so I'm fairly sure they were not broken.
 

andreasmaaan

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 19, 2018
Messages
6,652
Likes
9,399
That's interesting (and disappointing). Have you listened to any other speakers in this new room? If so, how'd they sound?
 
OP
J

jinithin

Member
Joined
Dec 18, 2019
Messages
17
Likes
20
Easy. In Europe -> KEF R3.
Great, I'll make sure to listen to those.

That's interesting (and disappointing). Have you listened to any other speakers in this new room? If so, how'd they sound?
Yes, I've listened to my Buchardt S200's in the new room, and while not perfect, they sounded absolutely incredible in comparison to the S400's.
A great wide soundstage, smooth mids & overall pleasant sound.
As said though, they lacked a bit in the lower mids & bass.
Hoping a better pair of speakers combined with one or more subwoofers will solve those issues :)
 

maty

Major Contributor
Joined
Dec 12, 2017
Messages
4,596
Likes
3,160
Location
Tarragona (Spain)
Keep in mind one thing, that new, without burn-in will lack bass.

In NA, the other option is the Ascend Acoustics 2EX.
 

andreasmaaan

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 19, 2018
Messages
6,652
Likes
9,399
Great, I'll make sure to listen to those.


Yes, I've listened to my Buchardt S200's in the new room, and while not perfect, they sounded absolutely incredible in comparison to the S400's.
A great wide soundstage, smooth mids & overall pleasant sound.
As said though, they lacked a bit in the lower mids & bass.
Hoping a better pair of speakers combined with one or more subwoofers will solve those issues :)

Ok, unfortunately I'm not sure how the S200s measure, so it's hard to compare them to the S400 to try to work out what the relevant differences might be. Do you have a link to a spec sheet or measurements by any chance?
 
OP
J

jinithin

Member
Joined
Dec 18, 2019
Messages
17
Likes
20
Ok, unfortunately I'm not sure how the S200s measure, so it's hard to compare them to the S400 to try to work out what the relevant differences might be. Do you have a link to a spec sheet or measurements by any chance?
I'm afraid not. I've tried to find them myself to no avail.
 

q3cpma

Major Contributor
Joined
May 22, 2019
Messages
3,060
Likes
4,416
Location
France
You should look at the JBL 705i (the port resonance shouldn't matter to you since you plan on using a sub) with the appropriate Crown amps, since you get your external and replaceable electronics, a 5 year warranty and all the advantages of an active crossover.
 

andreasmaaan

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 19, 2018
Messages
6,652
Likes
9,399
I'm afraid not. I've tried to find them myself to no avail.

Very hard to know. Personally, I'm reluctant to give any suggestions without first working out what (in terms of the measured performance of the speaker) you preferred in the S200, especially given the S400 is a reasonably neutral speaker. In other words, most of the speakers I (and I presume most here) would normally recommend would be unlikely to perform much differently from it.

Are your speakers set up along the long or the short wall?

And, with the S400s, were they pointing at your ears or somewhere else? In a small room, I'd suggest pointing them inwards, something like this:

1582148199425.png
 
  • Like
Reactions: SDC

stevenswall

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Dec 10, 2019
Messages
1,366
Likes
1,075
Location
Orem, UT
Have you heard the R3? If you can do a comparison between it and something without a coaxial driver, I'd do that first, move around, and see if it's worth it to you. Doing that myself, it's now more or less a deal breaker for me if something doesn't have a coaxial driver.

The only other suggestion is to think really hard about the "not powered" part. I've never seen a broken studio monitor due to electronics in my entire life (27 years, though only a dozen of those being into audio). I've never even heard of someone talking about a broken one and used to work in the music department of a university in Idaho. I also just bought a decade old pair, and was looking at a decade old 5.1 Genelec set from BYU, a university nearby, that was still fetching $2500 and worked perfectly. I think a lot of people worry about it especially with high priced things like the Devialet Phantom, but when I looked up people who had to return them or had broken ones, the first few I found were accidents or they had dented the woofers. None were the internal electronics, so I stopped looking.

Don't look at it like a printer or hard driver or CD player, as those have moving parts. Look at "studio monitor reliability" more like "when was the last time the CPU on my computer totally burned out?" or "When did I last experience a car computer failing even on a 20 year old vehicle?".

If I were you I'd get the Neumann KH80, and if it broke in a dozen years I'd still have enough to buy another pair. It doesn't have quite as horrible of lobing issues compared to other non-coincident driver monitors that I've seen plots of.

Non-powered if I was forced and didn't like the R3, I'd probably try the passive JBL 7 series like another person recommended on here.
 
OP
J

jinithin

Member
Joined
Dec 18, 2019
Messages
17
Likes
20
You should look at the JBL 705i (the port resonance shouldn't matter to you since you plan on using a sub) with the appropriate Crown amps, since you get your external and replaceable electronics, a 5 year warranty and all the advantages of an active crossover.

Great, I'll add those to the list.
Seems like they are not available for demo though, but I can at least buy them without hassle.

Very hard to know. Personally, I'm reluctant to give any suggestions without first working out what (in terms of the measured performance of the speaker) you preferred in the S200, especially given the S400 is a reasonably neutral speaker. In other words, most of the speakers I (and I presume most here) would normally recommend would be unlikely to perform much differently from it.

Are your speakers set up along the long or the short wall?

And, with the S400s, were they pointing at your ears or somewhere else? In a small room, I'd suggest pointing them inwards, something like this:

View attachment 50888

I understand.
The speakers are placed along the short wall.
With the S400's I tried multiple positions regarding toe-in.
From pointing them straight on in the room, and toeing them in towards my ears.
Unfortunately I do not own them anymore, so I can not try the cross position which you illustrated.

Thank you for all your answers.

Have you heard the R3? If you can do a comparison between it and something without a coaxial driver, I'd do that first, move around, and see if it's worth it to you. Doing that myself, it's now more or less a deal breaker for me if something doesn't have a coaxial driver.

The only other suggestion is to think really hard about the "not powered" part. I've never seen a broken studio monitor due to electronics in my entire life (27 years, though only a dozen of those being into audio). I've never even heard of someone talking about a broken one and used to work in the music department of a university in Idaho. I also just bought a decade old pair, and was looking at a decade old 5.1 Genelec set from BYU, a university nearby, that was still fetching $2500 and worked perfectly. I think a lot of people worry about it especially with high priced things like the Devialet Phantom, but when I looked up people who had to return them or had broken ones, the first few I found were accidents or they had dented the woofers. None were the internal electronics, so I stopped looking.

Don't look at it like a printer or hard driver or CD player, as those have moving parts. Look at "studio monitor reliability" more like "when was the last time the CPU on my computer totally burned out?" or "When did I last experience a car computer failing even on a 20 year old vehicle?".

If I were you I'd get the Neumann KH80, and if it broke in a dozen years I'd still have enough to buy another pair. It doesn't have quite as horrible of lobing issues compared to other non-coincident driver monitors that I've seen plots of.

Non-powered if I was forced and didn't like the R3, I'd probably try the passive JBL 7 series like another person recommended on here.

Thank you so much for your elaborate answer.

I have not heard the R3's, but they're at the top of my list.
I'll make sure to listen to them in the coming weeks.

Regarding powered monitors, maybe I'll reconsider.
If I find something that just blows passive speakers (w/ dsp) out of the water, then maybe I'll budge :)
I'm just the kind of person to have equipment for a long time whenever I feel it's "the one".
So naturally, I'm afraid of active speakers due to extra parts that can go wrong.

Great suggestion with the KH80's and JBL's. I'll make sure those are on the list too.
 

andreasmaaan

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 19, 2018
Messages
6,652
Likes
9,399
You should look at the JBL 705i (the port resonance shouldn't matter to you since you plan on using a sub) with the appropriate Crown amps, since you get your external and replaceable electronics, a 5 year warranty and all the advantages of an active crossover.

Is this the resonance at c. 700Hz that you're talking about? Whether crossed to a sub or not, that resonance will remain present (unless the port is blocked).

OTOH, it's a relatively minor flaw in what is otherwise a superb speaker.
 

Midwest Blade

Senior Member
Joined
May 8, 2019
Messages
401
Likes
535
OP
J

jinithin

Member
Joined
Dec 18, 2019
Messages
17
Likes
20
You obviously aren't living in the UK. Very small?

What about a pair of PSB Imagine Ts?

I guess I'm a bit damaged by visiting american HiFi-forums a lot and seeing everyone having rooms as big as my whole house haha.
I'll check those speakers out.

Maybe a bit to much?
You might try REW, probably a better way to find out what treatments are needed.
The opening pages of this massive posting can be of use: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-a...surement-techniques-how-interpret-graphs.html

Maybe it is a bit much.
Figured I should try it out at least.
I've measured a bit now using REW with my UMIK, and got the following results when experimenting (w/ 1/48 smoothing):

REW.PNG


These results were without toe-in from my S200's, which seemed to be the smoothest response.
Looks like I got rid of a few of the issues I had before moving them around.
Still some pretty bad dips at ~190, ~320, & ~410hz though.

Also, I am attaching a bad picture to get some kind of comprehension of my room.
Please note that I've just moved in, and more furniture will come :D

My question is why all the room treatment when you have not yet selected your speaker, what issues were you trying to resolve? You may need to remove some treatments and start again with a your new selection.

I had some treatment from before, and tried to make things better with my S400's.
Don't have any measurements left from those speakers though.
Sorry for offending you.
I will redo, and test without treatment once I buy new speakers. I promise.
 

Attachments

  • IMG_20200220_145748.jpg
    IMG_20200220_145748.jpg
    3.2 MB · Views: 262
Top Bottom