Soundstage, Imaging and Seperation, which is better? (Polk R700 vs Klipsch RP8000 II)

[AllJazz]

Hi,

Long time lurker first time poster!

I listen to Jazz music primarily.
Im looking at buying new floor standers and these two floor standers are in my price range. I hope I explain myself correctly.


I had a chance at listening to the Klipsch RP8000 II. And really liked the way they sounded. It's weird because they do seem to get mixed review but I really liked them, yes they aren't $6000 speakers but for the price they were good to my ears!

In terms of sound characteristics im really looking for Open, Live, nice soundstage with good instrument placement. I think this is the best way to describe what im looking for in terms of a sound signature. I like a nice stereo field. I would possibly trade off other things to get a nice soundstage. Almost like listening to a live recording and hearing the horn section somewhere in the field that makes it 3D, I dont know if im describing it correctly or not so apologies ahead of time.

I don't have a chance to demo the Polk R700's right now.

Can anybody maybe chime in on which of the two speakers has a nicee soundstage and best instrument placement between the two floor standers?

Thanks for any advice!

 

[DSJR]

The choice is whatever you can look at for long periods and how your brain creates the soundstage in your head - oh, and the room acoustics reacting with the dispersion/directivity of your speaker choice....

Not the reply you want, but I think that's a fair stab at it really. My live experiences of jazz and orchestral music have often given me a kind of amorphous 'soundstage' too if I don't sit too close and yes, I used to attend a venue now rebuilt conventionally where I sat very close so the drums and brass almost pushed me to the back wall

 

[AllJazz]

The choice is whatever you can look at for long periods and how your brain creates the soundstage in your head - oh, and the room acoustics reacting with the dispersion/directivity of your speaker choice....

Not the reply you want, but I think that's a fair stab at it really. My live experiences of jazz and orchestral music have often given me a kind of amorphous 'soundstage' too if I don't sit too close and yes, I used to attend a venue now rebuilt conventionally where I sat very close so the drums and brass almost pushed me to the back wall

Not the Response I wanted! Im just kidding.

I get what youre saying. I guess I would need the advice of someone who has heard both speakers side by side that where matched by volume in the perfect room and a/b'ing them! Im not asking for allot am I? LOL

Thanks for the response

 

[ahofer]

In terms of sound characteristics im really looking for Open, Live, nice soundstage with good instrument placement. I think this is the best way to describe what im looking for in terms of a sound signature.

I'm going to venture a guess based on the words here. I think "open" and "good placement" can be a bit at odds, inasmuch as I tend to associate "open" with wide-dispersion speakers (with lots of FR coherent reflection, hopefully), but "good placement" with narrower-dispersion speakers. This is sort of a Revel-KEF distinction. I'm on the Revel side of that divide. The most solid image placement I've heard was with a set of KEF Reference 5s in a highly damped room. And I had some Maggies years ago that drove me crazy with instrument location seeming to bounce around mid-track. I currently use Harbeths in one place and Revels in another and have about the right balance. The Revels in particular (F228be) are pretty amazing at throwing a big stage and not sending instruments all over the place, despite being in a too-live space.

 

[AllJazz]

I'm going to venture a guess based on the words here. I think "open" and "good placement" can be a bit at odds, inasmuch as I tend to associate "open" with wide-dispersion speakers (with lots of FR coherent reflection, hopefully), but "good placement" with narrower-dispersion speakers. This is sort of a Revel-KEF distinction. I'm on the Revel side of that divide. The most solid image placement I've heard was with a set of KEF Reference 5s in a highly damped room. And I had some Maggies years ago that drove me crazy with instrument location seeming to bounce around mid-track. I currently use Harbeths in one place and Revels in another and have about the right balance. The Revels in particular (F228be) are pretty amazing at throwing a big stage and not sending instruments all over the place, despite being in a too-live space.

My apologies again, not sure if its correct. But I guess I want to feel like im at the venue listening live, almost like I can hear different sounds coming from different areas in the room even tho the speakers are right in front of me? Im so bad at explaining it. I think its because Im not familiar with audiophile language.

 

[bargainguy]

Here's the thing about soundstage: It has to be in the original signal. If it isn't, doesn't matter what speakers you have, because you won't get it.

So your question is really: Within the context of my current system - can I expect better subjective results with the Polks?

We don't know what electronics and source you're using, but there might be a substantial opportunity for upgrading your subjective soundstage experience there rather than in the speakers.

This point was hammered home for me recently. I had been using decent sources for my back channel Canton Karat 920 DC speakers, and all was well. Until I upgraded the source to the Eversolo DMP-A6 with ~115dB SINAD via the RCA outs I'm using. I remember thinking, did the soundstage just explode? That was the only thing I changed - but what a difference it made. Those little speakers really came alive in a way I had not anticipated. I really had a hard time believing I was listening to the same speakers. Yet the only thing I changed was the source.

 

[AllJazz]

Here's the thing about soundstage: It has to be in the original signal. If it isn't, doesn't matter what speakers you have, because you won't get it.

So your question is really: Within the context of my current system - can I expect better subjective results with the Polks?

We don't know what electronics and source you're using, but there might be a substantial opportunity for upgrading your subjective soundstage experience there rather than in the speakers.

This point was hammered home for me recently. I had been using decent sources for my back channel Canton Karat 920 DC speakers, and all was well. Until I upgraded the source to the Eversolo DMP-A6 with ~115dB SINAD via the RCA outs I'm using. I remember thinking, did the soundstage just explode? That was the only thing I changed - but what a difference it made. Those little speakers really came alive in a way I had not anticipated. I really had a hard time believing I was listening to the same speakers. Yet the only thing I changed was the source.

I get that! Im fairly new to audiophile side of listening. Ive been enjoying music for most of my life since I was very young. So its definitely a learning curve. I think I will go with the Klipsch RP8000 II's they sounded so good to my noob ears! I had an opportunity to listen to B&W 702 S3's recently and they sounded very nice very open and 3D.

Thanks for all of the responses, I should have a ridiculous question incoming in a new thread in the next few days.

Regards

 

[ahofer]

I think its because Im not familiar with audiophile language.

I don't think audiophiles are that conversant with 'audiophile language'. It's (mostly?) too subjective to be very useful, and often used to obscure attributes on which one might actually usefully distinguish or favor one technology or piece of equipment over another. The best thing to do is listen to wider-dispersion and narrower dispersion speakers and take note of the sound differences so you develop your own internal vocabulary for it. Correlate sounds to measurements.

 

[RobL]

… I think I will go with the Klipsch RP8000 II's they sounded so good to my noob ears! …

Erin reviewed those speakers here:

Klipsch RP-8000F II Floorstanding Speaker Review

Klipsch RP-8000F II Review

www.erinsaudiocorner.com

 

[AllJazz]

Erin reviewed those speakers here:

Klipsch RP-8000F II Floorstanding Speaker Review

Klipsch RP-8000F II Review

www.erinsaudiocorner.com

Ivre read his report and watched the video. I guess at the end of the day budget and what sounds good to my ears will be the deciding factor.

 

[sweetchaos]

I would encourage you to apply EQ to the Klipsch speakers, which gives a worthwhile improvement.

EQ for Klipsch RP-8000F II computed from ErinsAudioCorner data
Preference Score 4.92 with EQ 6.72
Generated from http://github.com/pierreaubert/spinorama/generate_peqs.py v0.24
Dated: 2023-08-26-15:16:34

Preamp: -5.6 dB

Filter 1: ON LS Fc 90 Hz Gain +2.97 dB Q 0.53
Filter 2: ON PK Fc 90 Hz Gain -0.82 dB Q 2.73
Filter 3: ON PK Fc 93 Hz Gain +0.18 dB Q 0.53
Filter 4: ON PK Fc 221 Hz Gain +2.25 dB Q 1.86
Filter 5: ON PK Fc 378 Hz Gain -2.73 dB Q 0.52
Filter 6: ON PK Fc 1220 Hz Gain +0.02 dB Q 1.42
Filter 7: ON PK Fc 1442 Hz Gain +1.75 dB Q 1.44
Filter 8: ON PK Fc 3008 Hz Gain -2.97 dB Q 0.64
Filter 9: ON LS Fc 10020 Hz Gain +2.67 dB Q 1.03

 

[AllJazz]

I would encourage you to apply EQ to the Klipsch speakers, which gives a worthwhile improvement.
View attachment 322527

This is very interesting! But I have a few questions.

The first question I have is about my signal chain.

Turntable/CD PLAYER >Audiolabs 7000a>Klipsch 8000 II

Where does this eq get inserted and with what device?

 

[sweetchaos]

MiniDSP Flex would be my choice.

 

[AllJazz]

MiniDSP Flex would be my choice.

I guess the confusion for me is how multiple devices hook up to the DSP module. So it acts like a software program able EQ.

But let's say we have 3 devices that hookup to the unit

1. Turntable that uses the built in pre on the Audiolabs 7000a

2. Cd transport that connects via the digital in on the Audiolabs

3. Audio streamer that hooks up to the Audiolabs 7000a either via RCA or digital

Do all three units>minidsp>Audiolabs 7000a>Klipsch 8000ii?

Also I would never be able to demo this as I don't know of any local stores or audiophiles who have this setup in the Toronto area. So how significant of a sound upgrade of the miniDSP in the end? Is it a substantial sound improvement?

Thanks again!

 

[sweetchaos]

See 2 threads:

Minidsp Flex Review (Audio DSP)

This is a review and detailed measurement of the Minidsp Flex audio signal processor. It was sent to me by the company and costs US $475 for unbalanced and $550 for balanced that I tested. Flex borrows the interface from SHD and puts it in a compact package. Seeing how I really liked that...

www.audiosciencereview.com

miniDSP Flex

New DAC/DSP with Dirac Live option from miniDSP..... https://www.minidsp.com/products/minidsp-in-a-box/flex I've been tempted by an SHD or SHD Studio for a while, but suspected that they might release something new. I've pre-ordered the balanced version with Dirac.

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[AllJazz]

Thanks Sweetchaos for the links!

 

[30 Ounce]

Audioholics reviewed both speakers and preferred the Polks.

Polk Audio Legend L200 Bookshelf and L400 Center Speaker Review

The L200 are Polk's latest high-end bookshelf speaker, and the L400 is the Legend center speaker. Both boast many of the state-of-the-art advances. Check out our detailed review of both here.

www.audioholics.com

Klipsch Reference Premiere RP-8000F II Floorstanding Loudspeaker Review

Klipsch released their new RP-8000F II floorstanding loudspeakers that we reviewed to determine if they still retain the same high value and performance of the originals despite the pricing hike?

www.audioholics.com

 

[Gahf]

This is very interesting! But I have a few questions.

The first question I have is about my signal chain.

Turntable/CD PLAYER >Audiolabs 7000a>Klipsch 8000 II

Where does this eq get inserted and with what device?

The equaliser comes in between the Turntable/CD player and the Audiolabs amplifier. I have gone through the manual and could not see any equaliser inbuilt, so unless I have not read properly, you would need to attach a separate equaliser in between your CD player and the Audiolabs amplifier. If the equaliser has only one input you would can use it with either the CD player or the Turntable. Which means you can connect one of the CD player or the turntable to the equaliser, and the output of the equaliser can go into the amplifier, and the other directly to the amplifier. Hope this helps. Any more clarity needed in my response, let me know.

 

[TheBatsEar]

In terms of sound characteristics im really looking for Open, Live, nice soundstage with good instrument placement. I think this is the best way to describe what im looking for in terms of a sound signature. I like a nice stereo field. I would possibly trade off other things to get a nice soundstage.

Same here, i ended up wit the Linton 85 doing exactly that in my room.
Other speakers i tested didn't give me the same results, KEF R3, ATC SCM19v2 and a bunch of others where tested in my room for a few weeks each and often against each other. I bought all of them used and so i did it almost cost neutral by selling them for more or less the same i paid.

My conclusion is that i can't predict the effect of the stereo field in my home based on measurements, nor can i trust any words that are uttered by reviewers or owners. I really had to go through a lot of speakers unless i had a match, there was no other way for me. I'm sure in another room different speakers would be better, so i can't even recommend the Linton 85 to everyone.

Sadly there is no easy solution to this problem. However, i found my speakers and you should be able to do the same, so there is hope

As for DSP, i found it totally worth the money and trouble, but i only apply it below 400Hz or so to reduce room modes. The difference is immediately obvious, you get dry and clean bass with it. It gets wobbly, louder and annoying without.
However, it doesn't change the stereo effect, which seems to be some kind of interaction between room diffusion/reflection and speaker directivity far above 400Hz or so.

I have everything connected to my MiniDSP Flex, it's basically what a preamp would be in the old days. TV connects optical, CD player coaxial, mobile phone, tablet and computer via LDAC/Bluetooth, a Raspberry-Pi streamer with Moode connects via USB and finally my Record player and preamp connects analog.

Output is to two subwoofers and my Yamaha A-S 1200, which then drives the speakers. You can either connect using line-in to the Yamaha, which is what i do so i get the analog volume knob, or you can use the main-in and use the Flex digital volume knob. I find the Yamaha easier to dial in.
I also replaced the A-S1200 with a Fosi V3 for a few weeks and couldn't make out a difference at normal volumes.

Another interesting thread about sound stage is this:

Properties of speakers that creates a large and precise soundstage

There are some similar threads about what imaging and soundstaging even is, and some threads about how to measure it (we're not great at that). In this thread I thought it would be interesting to have a look what properties is likely to enable a speaker to be good at this. My (!) definition of...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Deleted member 21219]

My conclusion is that i can't predict the effect of the stereo field in my home based on measurements, nor can i trust any words that are uttered by reviewers or owners.

I have found this to be very, very true. Some measurements give you a better guess, but results are highly dependent on positioning of both the speakers and the listener, as well as furnishings in the room. It's one of the reasons (among others) that I got into close-field listening years ago.

I don't get into all that many homes anymore, but I suspect that many listeners, limited by WAF and common conventions in room furnishings and arrangements, are missing out on good stereo fields in their homes. It's unfortunate.

Jim